A Pan-Indoeuropean Country
- Thread starter Rishi
- Start date
Skallagrim
Banned
The chances are very slim, but there are ways to make this happen... technically. The OP says that these countries are to be united (but doesn't specify when the unification must occur) and are to remain united until the present day. Given the amazingly long stretch of time we have to work with (from the Indo-European migrations up to the very recent past), I'm sure a scenario can be imagined where a sort of League of Nations arises that encompasses all Indo-European countries-- and then gradually evolves into a true federation. It would almost certainly include non-Indo-European countries as well, but if it includes all Indo-European ones, it technically meets the criteria of the OP. Also, let's keep in mind that with potential PODs going that far back, a scenario featuring an industrial revolution in (what we call) Antiquity would not be impossible at all. By the present day, there could simply be a world government, which unites all Indo-Europeans by default because it unites the whole planet. Never say never.
That said, a straight-forward 'empire' that somehow encompasses all Indo-Europeans from the start (or from any ancient time, really) and keeps them all united until the present day is not possible... except with absurd amounts of luck (to the point where probibility fails, and you're just messing with the outcome ASB-style).
That said, a straight-forward 'empire' that somehow encompasses all Indo-Europeans from the start (or from any ancient time, really) and keeps them all united until the present day is not possible... except with absurd amounts of luck (to the point where probibility fails, and you're just messing with the outcome ASB-style).
Maybe a West Eurasian steppe empire conquering half of Europe and Northern India could be the closest thing to resembling a Indo-European empire(both by analogy and by linguistics) but it would require an early POD.
Not happening. Too much of a distance for the groups to have any similarities to make a union possible. The only way it could work is with modern transportation and communication to counter natural barriers, but by this point, Europeans and west Asians are too different. Likewise, a world government is not happening. Europeans aren't subjecting themselves to a state where they're the minority. If said state encompasses India, then Indians are the majority. Go ask any European if they want their country run by a government on an entirely different continent.
Only way this is happening is by force, and that's ASB from past to present. Maybe if India invents spaceships and conquers half the world. An EU like deal is the best you're getting. Even then, it's barely working in Europe.
Skallagrim
Banned
I considered this idea ("Genghis Khan except from Ukrain instead of Mongolia", basically) -- but there's no obvious way I see that extending to Iceland etc., nor do I think an Empire of that sort would last long enough (at least not in an undivided state). That said, such an empire could be the historical ideal of "unification" that a later federation uses... a bit like how the proponents of the EU and European unification in general like to reference Charlemagne as their predecessor (e.g. the Charlemagne Prize).
You're basing your view on a lot of OTL factors. Considering the POD can literally go back to 4000 BC for this, I'd like to argue that you're being far too determinist.
-- Dissimilar groups not forming a union is just nonsense, because there can be lots of incentive to form unions. Economic interests, mutual defence, etc.
-- You say it requires modern transportation and communication to counter natural barriers, and I agree that such a federation would need 19th century tech at least, but then I explicitly suggested a scenario where tech advances more rapidly. Hardly implausible with a POD going that far back.
-- You assume Europeans will inevitably be dominant. There is no basis to assume that, when such ancient PODs are on the table.
-- You assume India is destined to be vastly overcrowded by the ATL's present day. I can easily see a world where India is the first region to industrialise (potentially long ago), and has long since passed through the post-industrial demographic transition by the ATL's present day.
In short, you are way too hung up on OTL, and projecting your OTL assumptions onta an ATL scenario where they may not be (in fact: are quite unlikely to be) valid.
Honestly let's just ignore the strict requirement of conquering literally every Indo-European, if we limit ourselves to at least most of Europe and most of India and Persia I think it possible to have such an empire.
About it lasting enough, it doesn't have to to have long term consequences, especially if you build upon other ties between Eastern Europe and India(maybe more Sarmatized Slavs and Iranified Indians early on, although that's kinda cheating considering you are more creating an Iranian sphere than a consciously Indo-European one)
In any case it's doubtful people would recognize this old kinship between Indo-European languages without modern linguistics and by that point it's like religions, cultures and languages would have drifted too apart.
Rishi
Banned
No, not really. You could just go back to the Proto-Indo-European homeland and have the Proto-Indo-Europeans consciously decide right from the very start that every land they conquer becomes a part of a unified empire.
No you can't, states are not created by conscious decision of a couple people you can reasonably expect to act differently.
I think its possible in a scenario where Islamic fanaticism doesn't become the force it is IOTL (ie-no Saudi/Gulf state patronage of Wahabism). The Middle East was (and still is) going through great social and cultural change. So, in a world where the Indo european speaking countries of Asia modernize, the Soviet Union still collapses and start with deeper economic integration with the European Union could fulfill the OP. But, I don't think it would be consciously Indo Europeanist and would include non Indo European speaking states (mainly Turkic speaking).
The Achaemenids defeat Alexander and Rome continues its ascendancy. The border between the Roman and Persian empires is fixed at the Bosporus. ITL, the Romans view the Persians similarly to how they viewed the Greeks. Eventually Roman and Persian nobility begin to intermarry, involving themselves in each others affairs of state and a unified, but highly decentralized, empire slowly emerges. Instead of fighting each other they will begin expanding into Germanic and Scythian/Saka lands. It's not clear if the Achaemenids were Zoroastrian in the way that the Sassanids ways, so this could lead for greater religious synchronization.
I never said Europeans were always going to dominate the world.
My main gripe is geography. I can't see anyone from Iberia having any cultural similarities with someone from Iran, or India. There's too much, land, desert, and mountains in the way. As mentioned, look at the EU. That's, as far as I'm concerned, as united as any continental union is going to be, even then, it's not panning out all that well. I just don't think it's possible for an indoeuropean identity to survive in any scenario, and I don't see many nations willingly subjecting themselves to becoming a minority under another foreign nation. There's going to be a majority, whether it's in India, Turkey, or some alternate Germany.
Mongol ultra-wank.
Or Indo-European screw, such that they never get out of the steppe.
Those literally the only ways I could see this happening, and probably not in the way you mean.
Or Indo-European screw, such that they never get out of the steppe.
Those literally the only ways I could see this happening, and probably not in the way you mean.
I would say no, especially for the tools we have in this sub section of AH. The only way is to avoid most of the migrations and find ways to keep the groups in the Pontic steppe and nearby. Through some method, the area develops into a very strong monoculture and integrates itself into a single Achaemenid esque empire in the Pontic flatlands to the Ural Mountains and perhaps towards Tocharia.
This issue is, connecting places such as Bengal with Western Europe and even connecting the Pontic steppe and Bengal is difficult.
This issue is, connecting places such as Bengal with Western Europe and even connecting the Pontic steppe and Bengal is difficult.
Albert.Nik
Banned
Proto Indo European Homeland is a hostile land with little resources. Compare that to Anatolia, Transoxania,Balkans,Italic Peninsula,Iberia,Gaul,Tarim Basin and Kashmir(the territories covered in the first wave). Scythians were the ones who dominated the PIE homeland before eventually Russians and Ukrainians took over. Even they migrated into Europe(it's said that they are the ancestors of Hungarians,Balkan Slavs in part) and India(ancestors of Jatts,Khatris,Nairs,Tulu Bunts,etc,etc). So that's not a worthy land. If say all Indo Europeans migrated to one place as a huge confederation and start massive cities like the Ancient Mesopotamia,it could be possible.
Within no time,Tocharians split into the Afanasevo culture and Indo-Iranians (probably even Balto-Slavs) went into the Sintashta culture and eventually Indo-Iranians went into the Andronavo culture. The Anatolian Lydians,Phrygians,Hittites,etc went off quickly into the Anatolia. So that precludes this already. Say all Proto-Indo-Europrans cross the Caucasus mountains and the Black Sea into Anatolia,ME and Balkans like the Anatolians before all these splits happened,this could be possible. Anyway @metalinvader665 is quite an expert in these things.
Within no time,Tocharians split into the Afanasevo culture and Indo-Iranians (probably even Balto-Slavs) went into the Sintashta culture and eventually Indo-Iranians went into the Andronavo culture. The Anatolian Lydians,Phrygians,Hittites,etc went off quickly into the Anatolia. So that precludes this already. Say all Proto-Indo-Europrans cross the Caucasus mountains and the Black Sea into Anatolia,ME and Balkans like the Anatolians before all these splits happened,this could be possible. Anyway @metalinvader665 is quite an expert in these things.
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