A Pale Horse: The Plague of 1512

Corouke,

Great TL! As said before, the graphics give it a great sense of professionalism.

I'd imagine that some amount of doctrinal conflict will arise concerning the explanation for the Horse Plague. You suggest that some Christians (Juan Val in Christogranada) blame the influence of Jews and Muslims. I could see some kind of free will vs. predestination split brewing between north and south. I'd guess that the North favors free will (traditional Catholic doctrine) and the Reformist favor a version of predestination. The Reformist might argue that the Plague came to clense the population and reveal the elect (just as OTL Calvinist predestination becomes manifest by actions of a person).

The question is more difficult over a matter like sola fida (salvation by faith alone) and laymen reading the Bible. The problem is that the Northern Humanists (Erasmus, Thomas More) will have had a better chance of surviving the Plague. They might be inclined to support something along these lines. The Reformists however cling to the doctrine of good works

In any case, I very much like the bit about the Ottoman Empire. Emir Ibrahim with his sultan-to-be in tow! Great line. It looks like the stage is set for some kind of Islamic Reformation as well, with religious warfare between the Ottomans and the Safavids.

I can't wait to see how the New World fairs. Could we see successful Native American/Mesoamerican states? Oh, the possibilities are endless!
 

Hendryk

Banned
So I guess the first one could start out "In light of the recent heretical activities...", and the second one could start out something like "Rome is under attack by heathens...". Anyone have any Latin that could work for that?
Myself, on those rare occasions when I need to check a Latin translation, I ask either carlton bach or MrP.

Nice maps, BTW. I like the way TTL is developing.
 

corourke

Donor
I say write it out as the Chapter listing of a history textbook. This way if you want to expand on a particular part later on, your next posting could be, for example, from Chapter 11; The Rise of Scandinavian Hegemony. And you write it as a prose from a textbook.

This is a really good idea, I think I am going to do this. Thanks.

Nicomacheus said:
Reformist favor a version of predestination. The Reformist might argue that the Plague came to clense the population and reveal the elect (just as OTL Calvinist predestination becomes manifest by actions of a person).

At the beginning of the Reformation, the two churches will be very similar, however the Reformist Church is (surprise!) more receptive to reform. This won't stop the Catholic Church from changing, though, which I will get to in a minute,

The problem is that the Northern Humanists (Erasmus, Thomas More) will have had a better chance of surviving the Plague. They might be inclined to support something along these lines. The Reformists however cling to the doctrine of good works

The Northern Church will probably reach a type of compromise with Erasmus and adopt a lot of his ideas, but still within the mantle of Catholicism. They will have to deal with a lot of religious rebels in Northern Germany, and will be searching for a way to accommodate those people.

In any case, I very much like the bit about the Ottoman Empire. Emir Ibrahim with his sultan-to-be in tow! Great line. It looks like the stage is set for some kind of Islamic Reformation as well, with religious warfare between the Ottomans and the Safavids.

The Ottoman Empire bit is one of my favorite parts of this TL. I am trying not to overdo it, but I eventually want to have a type of syncretic Islamo-Christian religion evolve there with its base in Greece and Western Anatolia, which will foster a more united empire there. I am kind of envisioning a repeat of what happened to produce the Byzantine Empire, with Greeks culturally influencing an invader and eventually producing a fusion culture there, with the original cultures largely replaced.

I can't wait to see how the New World fairs. Could we see successful Native American/Mesoamerican states? Oh, the possibilities are endless! Yesterday 11:27 AM

The New World won't really get much attention until after the reformist wars have petered out and and the population (in Northern Europe) has begun to approach its pre-plague levels.



anyway, thanks for all the great comments you guys. It really makes me much more likely to write updates when people engage me in conversation within the thread, because I can't help but to think about it. I'm going to try to get an update in today; I have some extra time.
 
The question is more difficult over a matter like sola fida (salvation by faith alone) and laymen reading the Bible.
Remembre at this time laymen reading of nthe Bible was banned, and publishing a bible could get you burnt at the stake.
 
Remembre at this time laymen reading of nthe Bible was banned, and publishing a bible could get you burnt at the stake.

That is nothing but nineteenth-century Protestant propaganda. There was no regulation against laymen reading the Bible, in the Latin or the vernacular - the problem was simply that most people excluding the clergy were illiterate even in their native tongue. However, the printing press did see an increase of literacy around this time prior to the POD, but not enough that it would have allowed the vast majority to read the Bible. Those burned at the stake were not necessarily punished for publishing a Bible, but the heretical commentaries or prefaces added.
 
Not according to the propaganda http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
Wycliffe produced dozens of English language manuscript copies of the scriptures. They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe. The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!
threatened anyone possessing a non-Latin Bible with execution. Hus was burned at the stake in 1415, with Wycliffe’s manuscript Bibles used as kindling for the fire.
Foxe’s Book of Martyrs records that in that same year, 1517, seven people were burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church for the crime of teaching their children to say the Lord’s Prayer in English rather than Latin.
The Latin had become so corrupt that it no longer even preserved the message of the Gospel… yet the Church still threatened to kill anyone who read the scripture in any language other than Latin
Propaganda Maybe, but based on a little bit of truth
 
1) Firstly, the reason the Pope was pissed off at the translation was because of the commentary, not the translation - there had been accepted English translations for years.

2) Again, popular histories tend to simplify the matter. If we're talking about the Hus incident, then it was because of Wyclif's accompanying commentary (heretical) that Hus et. al. were excecuted.

3) Foxe's Book of Martyrs is not exactly an unbiased source. It's meant to grasp at straws and attack the Church, damn the facts (though I will grant that Mary Tudor was batshit crazy).

4) As I said before, there were vernacular approved translations of the Bible as early as the 11th century. Practically all of the Bibles that the Church condmened were condemned for the accompaniying heretical commentary and prefaces.
 

corourke

Donor
A Pale Horse: The Reformist Wars, Part 2

Selected Quotations From:
Mann, David. A History of the Reformist Wars. 1936. Edinburgh, Britainia.

Contents

Chapter I: The Declaration of the Roman Crusade

Chapter II: The Occitan Uprising of 1533 and the Burning of Provence

“As French crusading armies made their way to Italy, they found a south of France that was strangely barren for the time of year. The Reformation had spread much faster in Southern France than had been anticipated, and the revolting peasants were not interested in helping the crusaders in their mission to conquer the Holy City. The crusaders found entire fields and grain stores burned, and everywhere faced brigands and a populace they could not trust. Frustrated and angry, the crusaders sacked Provence, setting off an active resistance that saw open battles between peasant forces and the crusading armies. The crusader’s departure from the south of France was as much a retreat as it was anything else, and by the time they arrived in Northern Italy, their numbers were already reduced by 10-30%” (Mann 74)
Chapter III: The Conversion of Henry XIII and the English Civil War

“Henry XIII of England had long taken issue with the Pope's influence in his personal and political affairs. He was a notorious philanderer, and the traditional Catholic stance on issues of marriage and legitimacy did not appeal to him. It was perhaps this consistent conflict with the papacy that caused him to declare for the Reformists in 1535.”
“It was indubitably a political move, and a poor one at that. Henry XIII must have known his decision would lead to war with France and Scotland, and the most likely explanation is that he hoped a war would solidify popular support for the Crown. His kingship had never been popular, and after the plague decimated London, serious legitimacy issues had begun to emerge.”
“He grossly underestimated the support he would find. A large faction of the Army deserted, and, perhaps prompted by Scottish agents, escaped to York, where they announced their intention to depose the heretic King of England. The First English Civil War lasted until 1539 without either side gaining the upper hand until the entry of Scotland at the end of that year. The Reformist forces of Henry XIII forces were larger and for the most part better equipped, but had small levels of support outside of London and southern England” (Mann 127)
Chapter IV: The Conquest of Milan

Chapter V: The Coronation of James IV, King of Scots, as James I of England

“Henry XIII was burned at the stake on March 17th, 1540, and James IV of Scotland was crowned James I of England on Easter of that year by the French Pope Silvester IV. Most of the English population had remained true to the French Catholic church and welcomed the change. In some areas of southern England, however, there were small uprisings and there remains even to this day a minority of Reformist Catholics in those areas who recognize the Pope in Rome” (Mann 247)
Chapter VI: The Jagiellon Conquest of Munich and the Conversion of Duke Louis X of Bavaria

“The Polish conquest of Munich during the Reformist Wars revealed the level of influence that country had accumulated in Central Europe and the Holy Roman Empire in the years after the Horse Plague. Indeed, Poland’s rise to can be clearly traced to the extremely low death rate during the plague years, indeed, as had been the case in the Black Death, large swaths of central Poland were entirely unaffected by the plague. This apparent immunity did great things for the Polish national spirit, in much the same way as in Safavid Persia.”
“Though the attack on Munich, apart from a few feints into eastern Hungary in the beginning of the war, was the only substantial anti-Reformist effort made by the Polish army during the war, it solidified Polish influence in the Papal court at Vienne as well as in Bavaria and Brandenburg” (Mann 300)
“When discussing Poland’s rise to power after the Horse Plague, it is impossible not to discuss Scandinavia as well. The jockeying for influence and power within the Holy Roman Empire that took place between Poland and Sweden (and, to a lesser extent, Denmark )defined the tone of the Reformation Wars in central Germany. Indeed, the confrontations between the two ostensibly allied nations that took place during the Reformist Wars can be seen as the opening shots of a group of conflicts commonly called the Great Northern War, which would last for almost 250 years and stretch from central Germany to Finland and the lands of Muscovy” (Mann 312)

[FONT=&quot]Next: The Swiss Civil War and the Constitution of 1545[/FONT]
 
Great stuff although I wanted more on the burning of the King at the stake and what lay beyond the excerpts...they all sound cool! :)

...which is kind of odd depending on the legacy one sets on if a leading official is identified as heretic. Does this mean that any heretic will be burned and that the French Pope will create something along the lines of the Inquisition or is it only in this case (i.e. England)?
 
Cool, I read the entire TL the other day. And just finished reading your lattest update. I take it that the rivalry between Poland and Sweden will replace the one between the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs as the contoling powers of the HRE...

Anyway, keep it going, the TL looks great so far.
 
4) As I said before, there were vernacular approved translations of the Bible as early as the 11th century. Practically all of the Bibles that the Church condmened were condemned for the accompaniying heretical commentary and prefaces.
When? and where? I would personally like to hear about some of these.
I would actually find it easier to believe before 1000 when the RC church was doing major conversion efforts amount the various pagan tribes of e.g. central Europe.
 

corourke

Donor
Hello everyone,

I've sort of let this timeline lapse because of personal time constraints (exams, moving back to California, other very time-consuming things). Because of this I have lost my train of thought, and it seems to be a good opportunity to revise this TL a little bit and get rid of some internal inconsistencies and add some changes.

I will be posting another thread which will repost what I've already written (with sometimes substantial alterations), and continue on more or less where I've left off, except in a slightly different world.

Here's a preview of the table of contents, including the titles of the next couple of articles I plan on posting (some of which have already been written).

In the meantime, please use this thread to discuss, comment, and ask questions about this TL, if you have any. Questions really help me consider the depth of the affects that my changes will have, which in turn adds to the depth and realism of the TL.

---------------------------------------

A Pale Horse: The Plague of 1512


Revised Table of Contents


1.Introduction

2.The Plague in Italy

3.The Plague in Iberia

4.The Plague’s Effects on the Overseas Empires of the Iberian States: The Fortunate Isles

5.The Plague’s Effects on the Overseas Empires of the Iberian States: The Carribean

6.The Plague’s Effects on the Overseas Empires of the Iberian States: The End of Portuguese Dominance in the Indian Ocean

7.The Plague in France

8.The Plague in the Ottoman Empire

9.The Rise of the Safavid Empire

10.The Death of Pope Julius II

11.The Start of the Reformist Wars

12.The Reformist Wars, Continued

13.The Swiss Civil War and the Peace of Bern

14.The Conclusion of the Reformist Wars and the Peace Treaty

15.The Abyssinian Colonization of Samaetia

16.The Rise of Omani Mercantilism

17.The Theocratic Reunification of Spain and the Resumption of the Reconquista

18.The fall of the Mexica Empire and the Rise of the Tarasequi


(Bolded entries have already been posted in some form, unbolded ones have yet to be posted)
 

Hnau

Banned
I was just thinking about this timeline a few days ago. Though I am not supportive of necroing by anyone but the thread author, it was a good excuse to give the TL a look again. :)

EDIT: BTW, corourke posted a revised version of this timeline with a little more content. Enjoy.
 
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I did not realize how old this thread was. Drunk and revisiting old but great timelines. My apologies. Also, thanks for the link to the revision!
 
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