A one sided battle: USS Iowa vs Bismark

Swordman

Banned
The only real advantage that Bismarck has over USS Iowa is the rate of fire for the 15" main batteries; these can fire faster than Iowa's 16/50"s

In terms of overall firepower, USS Iowa has got Bismarck beat hands down; 9 16"/50s vs 8 15".

The 16" guns have longer range and throw a much-heavier shell, plus USS Iowa has better fire control than KM Bismarck.

Mike Garrity
 
I imagine this will come in handy for you.


I have to say I think that the author of that page is comparing apples to oranges for much of his article . KGV is vastly underrated and the loss of POW to a golden BB torpedo strike and the subsequent disabling of her AA is taken out of context . All other things considered the Bismarck is also typically vastly over rated because all things German are better JA JA JA .

Having said that the Bismarck would be easily overwhelmed by the firepower of a North Carolina , once you include the tactical speed of an Iowa well it can't outhit the Iowa , It can't outrun the Iowa and it can't outshoot the Iowa . the only way literally for an Iowa to be easy meat for a Bismarck would be to be caught tied up alongside with no boilers lit and a half crew.
 
Differences ate too big, as Iowa is a faster ship, but out of time, compared to Bismarck, as Iowa only was available in an acceptable condition after WW2, in 1946, since the WW2 period vessel from 1943 on lacked the needed electronics and equipment to be an effective surface against surface ships. (more optimized against airattaks, which were a priority.)

Bismarck was in her mid 1941 form, not comparrable to a late 1946 form on Iowa, so no comparrison is possible to be bade, as a 1941 Iowa was nothing more than a pile of metal on a slipyard, which even could not float on its own.
 
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Which would be a fairer match then, a North Carolina class or a South Dakota class.

A North Carolina was a ship with a larger hull and better bouyancy, com pared to a cramped South Dakota, which was a nightmare to serve on for the crew. Both had their problems in seakeeping and sability though, mostly due to their top heaviness. Compared to eachother, the shorter hull, but same beam on a South Dakota as in theory better suited for a gunplatform, though the added weight made her a bit wobbling and unstable, while the larger volume of the hull of a North Carolina offered more sability on its own.
 
Also of interest is the USN gunnery, which is often claimed to be quite well, but in combat it proved to be in effective at all ranges other than short range. German gunnery excelled in medium to long range though as the Kriegsmarine proved on several occasions in 1939 to 1943 alone.

Having said this, one should remeber that the only time USN BB's did fire in anger at a surface target, ranges were short to medium relatively and even then their gunnery often missed the target completely. (Only USS Washington scored hits on a moving target in 1942 at ranges of 8000 yards and less, while at Leyte the Oldendorff group engaged at around 11,000 yards and less. German gunnery often opened up at ranges exceeding 20,000 yards and scoring hits with their first salvo's quite often, at least when visability was good enough to use optical rangefinders. (Gneisenau hitting HMS Glorious at some 24,000 yards is a good example as is Bismarck against HMS Hood at ± 18,000 yards) HMS Warspite held the record at 27,000 yards though.
 
Also of interest is the USN gunnery, which is often claimed to be quite well, but in combat it proved to be in effective at all ranges other than short range. German gunnery excelled in medium to long range though as the Kriegsmarine proved on several occasions in 1939 to 1943 alone.

Having said this, one should remeber that the only time USN BB's did fire in anger at a surface target, ranges were short to medium relatively and even then their gunnery often missed the target completely. (Only USS Washington scored hits on a moving target in 1942 at ranges of 8000 yards and less, while at Leyte the Oldendorff group engaged at around 11,000 yards and less. German gunnery often opened up at ranges exceeding 20,000 yards and scoring hits with their first salvo's quite often, at least when visability was good enough to use optical rangefinders. (Gneisenau hitting HMS Glorious at some 24,000 yards is a good example as is Bismarck against HMS Hood at ± 18,000 yards) HMS Warspite held the record at 27,000 yards though.

I know it's only a wikipedia reference but this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamashiro#Battle_of_Surigao_Strait seems to indicate West Virginia first hit Yamashiro @ ~22,700 yards, with Tennessee and California joining in shortly after... Not quite as good as Warspite and Gneisenau, but I would be inclined to judge their gunnery as "competent" at long range.
 
I know it's only a wikipedia reference but this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamashiro#Battle_of_Surigao_Strait seems to indicate West Virginia first hit Yamashiro @ ~22,700 yards, with Tennessee and California joining in shortly after... Not quite as good as Warspite and Gneisenau, but I would be inclined to judge their gunnery as "competent" at long range.

This here is the more accurate report, showing the USN Battleline had many problems in rangefinding and engaing Yamashiro, mostly due to their own activities:

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At 0351, when YAMASHIRO, MOGAMI and SHIGURE were 15 600 yards (14.2 kilometres) from Oldendorf and Berkey’s cruiser, Oldendorf ordered both cruiser battle lines to open fire on the three Japanese ships. RADM Oldendorf’s is quoted in his after action report; “Every ship in the flank forces and the battle line opened up at once, and there was a semi-circle of fire which landed squarely on one point, which was the leading battleship. The semi-circle of fire so confused the Japanese that they did not know what target to shoot at.” Over the next twenty minutes Oldendorf’s ships and men, including many Pearl Harbor veterans, gained their revenge, 3000 heavy projectiles, including 14 and 16-inch shells, slamming into and around the three Japanese ships.

For Nishimura, after the PT Boats and the destroyer attacks, there was nothing more he could do. One moment in front of him there was nothing on the horizon, either visually or on the fire control radar which by now was affected by multiple returns reflected off the land on either side of the strait to be effective, the next moment the horizon lit up as Oldendorf’s heavy ships began their attack with full broadsides. That was at 0352hrs, and Nishimura ordered FUSO to make best speed, not realising that FUSO had just blown up several miles behind him. Nishimura’s final order to his battered fleet was; “You are to proceed to attack all ships.”

YAMASHIRO by this time was at 12 knots and engaging targets visually as the battleship became the first target of the cruisers. DENVER opened fire, followed by PORTLAND, COLOMBIA, LOUISVILLE, and MINNEAPOLIS.

The battleships were now passing ahead of the enemy column in the classic crossing the "T” manoeuvre. WEST VIRGINIA, with the latest Mk 8 fire control radars, opened fire at 0353hrs on YAMASHIRO, firing ninety three 16 inch before stopping. Shortly after the first salvo reached the YAMASHIRO, killing Vice Admiral Nishimura. The cruisers PHOENIX, and BOISE then joined in, targeting YAMASHIRO, with RADM Berkey informing BOISE to slow her rate of fire to conserve ammunition.

At 0355 TENNESSEE and CALIFORNIA opened fire, the two battleships firing six round salvos from their main guns, one hundred thirty two 14-inch shells were expended between them before they too stopped firing. The three remaining battleships, MISSISSIPPI, MARYLAND, and PENNSYLVANIA, with older fire control radars, were having trouble getting range.

The nine destroyers of DESRON 56 entered the battle. Between 0354 and 0359hrs six destroyers launched over twenty torpedos at ranges up to 8000 yards (7315 metres) without success then withdrew under fire.

SHROPSHIRE was having trouble with her fire control system, and as she, along with PHOENIX, and BOISE conducted a formation turn towards the west SHROPSHIRE finally opened fire with her 8-inch guns at 0356hrs. SHROPSHIRE’S Commanding Officer, Captain Nicholls in his after action report stated “A very high rate of fire was attained in rapid salvoes; as many as eight broadsides in two minutes being fired.”

For the DENVER another target came into view, and she shifted fire to SHIGURE at 0358hrs, and continued to fire. By now the range had decreased between Oldendorf’s heavy units and the YAMASHIRO, MOGAMI and SHIGURE, and as the fire from Oldendorf’s ships increased in accuracy the three ships to the southwest as they began to withdraw. YAMASHIRO and MOGAMI had suffered moderate damage while concentrating their fire on the closest US cruisers, while remarkably the SHIGURE had only received one hit from a dud 8-inch shell.

At 0359hrs the battleship MARYLAND, using the WEST VIRGINIA’S fall of shot (and the large columns of water they created) engaged, firing 48 rounds. MISSISSIPPI’S fire control radar only allowed one targeted salvo against the three ships, while for the PENNSYLVANIA, her fire control radar refused to lock onto anything and was the only battleship not to fire a shot.

MOGAMI had taken heavy damage, and while the crew raced to repair damage all over the ship the MOGAMI fired torpedos at the incoming destroyers of DESRON 56. That was the last attack MOGAMI made as the cruiser PORTLAND fired a salvo of eight-inch shells at 0402hrs at MOGAMI, hitting the bridge, killing her captain, as well as hitting the engine room and bringing MOGAMI to a stop.

For the remaining three ships of DESRON 56, USS ALBERT W. GRANT (DD-649) USS NEWCOMB (DD-586) and USS RICHARD P. LEARY (DD-664) they began their attack at 0404hrs while the battleships were engaged. After the three destroyers followed the YAMASHIRO, and paralleled the battleship after she turned to the southwest. At 6200 yards (5669 metres) RICHARD P. LEARY, NEWCOMB and ALBERT W. GRANT launched thirteen torpedos at YAMASHIRO.

The ALBERT W. GRANT was then targeted by the YAMASHIRO and was fired on during her attack, scoring several hits. Eleven shells fired from an American cruiser then hit the ALBERT W. GRANT, believed to be fired from DENVER, who had mistaken the destroyer for SHIGURE. 34 sailors were killed, 94 wounded. As word of the friendly fire incident reached RADM Oldendorf at 0408hrs, he ordered all Allied ships to cease fire, to allow the destroyers to withdraw. NEWCOMB came to the aid of ALBERT W. GRANT, and together both ships sailed out of danger.
As the order to cease-fire came through the MISSISSIPPI fired a broadside at 19 700 yards (18 kilometres) at the retreating Japanese force. This became the last salvo fired in a battleship vs battleship action. As the distinguished American naval historian, RADM Samuel Eliot Morison, wrote of the battle, “In the unearthly silence that followed the roar of Oldendorf s 14" and 16" guns in Surigao Strait, one could imagine the ghosts of all great admirals, standing at attention to salute the passing of a kind of naval warfare they all understood. For in the opening minutes of 25 October 1944, the Battle Line became as obsolete as the row-galley tactics of centuries before.”

DESRON 56’s nine destroyers fired multiple torpedos during the attack, but two from NEWCOMB hit Nishimura’s flagship at 0411, stopping her dead in the water. The torpedo hit, on top of the damage inflicted by the cruisers and battleships, was too much for YAMASHIRO, which rolled over, sinking at 0419hrs.

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Starting range was 15,600 yards and closing, not the 20,000+ yards suggested. Hits were mostly scored by the cruisers of Oldendorf and only three BB's actually engaged her directly, scoring a few hits at a flat trajectory. Torpedoes were the killers on Yamashiro, taking two prior to the engaging Oldendorf and two more, which put her down in the later stages of the engagement.

So Oldendorff's BB line did help to create serios damage, but not cause the loss of Yamashiro. Destroyers were the instrument of her destruction, with, or without the support of the BB's.
 
The real problem with assessing US BB gunnery is the lack of examples. The Germans got to shoot at opponents in daylight. US BBs did not. The Iowa's AFIAK never had the opportunity to engage a hostile naval target.

The US BBs that did engage did so at night. The ones that had problems at Surigao straight were the ones equipped with first generation radar. The ones with current radar shot well.

Their long range skills were almost put to the test. IIRC two Iowas were about 40 miles away from Ozawa's decoy carrier force when Halsey turned them around.
 
The real problem with assessing US BB gunnery is the lack of examples. The Germans got to shoot at opponents in daylight. US BBs did not. The Iowa's AFIAK never had the opportunity to engage a hostile naval target.

The US BBs that did engage did so at night. The ones that had problems at Surigao straight were the ones equipped with first generation radar. The ones with current radar shot well.

Their long range skills were almost put to the test. IIRC two Iowas were about 40 miles away from Ozawa's decoy carrier force when Halsey turned them around.

AFAIK the only long range daylight gunnery duel the USN engaged in was the Battle of the Komandorski Islands. If accounts are to be believed, both the US and Japanese cruisers were scoring hits at around 20,000 yards (including the old OMAHA class CL USS RICHMOND).
 
AFAIK the only long range daylight gunnery duel the USN engaged in was the Battle of the Komandorski Islands. If accounts are to be believed, both the US and Japanese cruisers were scoring hits at around 20,000 yards (including the old OMAHA class CL USS RICHMOND).

Conversely there are not may, if any examples of German gunnery skill at night. Anyone have data from their night gunnery training?
 
If I remember correctly, Iowa and one of her sisters engaged in long range shooting during a raid on Truk (or was it another island?). Near misses were scored, but no hits.

Ah, it was the 17-18 February raid on Truk. http://www.combinedfleet.com/katori_t.htm

The long range shooting part: "...Cdr (Rear Admiral, posthumously) Moriya Setsuji's (former CO of SUZUKAZE) destroyer NOWAKI flees the onslaught. Both American battleships - the fastest in the world - give chase at 32.5 knots. At 35,000 yards, NEW JERSEY and IOWA open fire and straddle NOWAKI with their first salvos. NOWAKI flees into the sun's glare, so at 38,000 yards both battleships fire under radar control. At 22 miles, these are the longest range shots ever fired by American battleships against an enemy vessel. At 39,000 yards, Admiral Spruance orders Cease Fire. NOWAKI escapes and eventually makes her way back to Yokosuka. ..."
 
Hmmmmmm - not too biased then

Perhaps he should have put a further list in

How useful were said ships during the war?

The list is simply a straightforward comparison of the battleships, not an analysis of whether those battleships were useful or not given the strategic situation of their home countries.
 
Hmmmmmm - not too biased then

Perhaps he should have put a further list in

How useful were said ships during the war?

Bu then the KGVs would win...unless he included HMS Warspite in which case they would come 2nd

Wouldn't that be Bismarck since it and its sister tied down vastly more resources than went into making them and indirectly aided the Japanese clean sweep of the Pacific?;)
 
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