A NOT racist 'Nazi' Germany?

If my title is a little misleading, please let me start by offering my apologies.

My question is: Are there any nationalist German groups that could have plausibly come to power in Germany during the 20s and / or the 30s that were not explicitly anti-Semitic like the Nazis?

Now I prescribe to the view that we are all racist to some degree or another, so I do not mean the run-of-the-mill prejudice that were far more in vogue at that time. What I mean is the anti-Semitism, and the ideology of racial purity that ultimately led to the 'Final Solution' and the Holocaust.

Even better, is there such a group that might have come to power that also advocated irredentist claims (Poland etc)?

Thanks,
Amartus
 

General Zod

Banned
If my title is a little misleading, please let me start by offering my apologies.

My question is: Are there any nationalist German groups that could have plausibly come to power in Germany during the 20s and / or the 30s that were not explicitly anti-Semitic like the Nazis?

Now I prescribe to the view that we are all racist to some degree or another, so I do not mean the run-of-the-mill prejudice that were far more in vogue at that time. What I mean is the anti-Semitism, and the ideology of racial purity that ultimately led to the 'Final Solution' and the Holocaust.

Even better, is there such a group that might have come to power that also advocated irredentist claims (Poland etc)?

If a Nazi takeover could be avoided (and it might), the obvious alternative was a conservative-nationalist authoritarian regime, something between vanilla fascism and neo-Wilhelmine authoritarianism a la Salazar or Franco. Most likely a monarchical restoration with an Hohenzollern figurehead and some strongman behind the throne. It would have been fiercely anti-Marxist and strongly irredentistic (towards Austria, Sudentenland and the 1914 Polish territories, rather than Alsace-Lorraine or South Tyrol, for expediency's sake if nothing else), not racist in a Nazi sense. Seriously hostile to uppity Slav nationalities that kept Germans under their thumb, however, such as the Poles and the Czech.
 
Last edited:
So - the DNVP supported by the Stahlheim (a possibility?) comes to power and the / a Kaiser is subsequently restored. Would this occur in the 20s or in the 30s?

What would drive an imperial Germany to go after Austria, or would this be the nationalist factor - all Germans under one roof so to speak?

And, to jump forward a little, if the Germans are successful in taking on the Poles - and leaving aside whether the war continues in the West / the wider international implications of this are - what would their policy towards the Poles be; would a Poland still exist, with just German territory 'restored'? And pretty much the same question in regards to Czechoslovakia....
 
You could have Crown Prince Wilhelm run for President as an independent and win; probably his agenda would be supported by the DNVP, Stahlhelm, and other conservative nationalist groups. He was going to, anyway; he'd probably restore the monarchy, at least for Germany proper and Prussia. The other states, 'tis a bit more ambiguous.

Either way, you'd need someone with balls brass enough to effect the economic reforms that the NSDAP did and get away with it while still being conservative. If you want to have the regime staying in power long enough to be remembered, anyway.
 

General Zod

Banned
So - the DNVP supported by the Stahlheim (a possibility?) comes to power and the / a Kaiser is subsequently restored. Would this occur in the 20s or in the 30s?

The early-mid 1930s, most likely. They ride in power lookling like the "respectable" alternative to the thuggish Nazis, they coopt part of that movement, then drown the rump Nazis and the Communists in ruthless repression.

What would drive an imperial Germany to go after Austria, or would this be the nationalist factor - all Germans under one roof so to speak?

Exactly. Besides the fact that Austria would still be the easiest pick for an irredentist neo-Wilhelmine Germany. They only need to buy the acquiescence of Mussolini (e.g. by supporting him when he gets sanctions for Ethiopia).

And, to jump forward a little, if the Germans are successful in taking on the Poles - and leaving aside whether the war continues in the West / the wider international implications of this are - what would their policy towards the Poles be; would a Poland still exist, with just German territory 'restored'? And pretty much the same question in regards to Czechoslovakia....

The nationalists had no grandiose racial colonization schemes like the Nazis. They would just want to annex Austria, the Sudetenland, and the lost 1914 Polish territories, then they would be most happy to have the Czechs and the Poles as independent satellites. At the very most, if they somehow get a very very free hand in Europe, they might be willing to annex the Czechs (they were integral part of the old HRE, and very valuable economically), the Poles, never. Keeping the Posen Poles alone in line was trouble enough in the old Empire.
 
Last edited:

General Zod

Banned
You could have Crown Prince Wilhelm run for President as an independent and win; probably his agenda would be supported by the DNVP, Stahlhelm, and other conservative nationalist groups. He was going to, anyway; he'd probably restore the monarchy, at least for Germany proper and Prussia. The other states, 'tis a bit more ambiguous.

Yes, this is one likely route. Either this, or Von Scheicler gets entrenched into power. Or both, in close sequence (S. stabilizes his chancellorship in 1933, Wilhelm successfully runs fro President in 1934, then they restore the monarchy, and push an authoritarian regime change).

Either way, you'd need someone with balls brass enough to effect the economic reforms that the NSDAP did and get away with it while still being conservative. If you want to have the regime staying in power long enough to be remembered, anyway.

Yup, this nationalist-authoritarian monarchist regime would need a talented and farsighted strongman if its has to take root and get real hostorical significance. I wonder who might fit the role. Von Schleichler, perhaps. He seemed to have some good ideas.
 
Not _as_ racist as the Nazis, yes. Nothing was as extreme as them. But the Nazis built over a rockbed of anti-semitism that was not that uncommon in many European countries and that few if any right-wing nationalist groups would be immune from.
 
Not _as_ racist as the Nazis, yes. Nothing was as extreme as them. But the Nazis built over a rockbed of anti-semitism that was not that uncommon in many European countries and that few if any right-wing nationalist groups would be immune from.
True, but there's a pretty big gap between giving Jews theoretical legal equality but excluding them from top governmental jobs as was the case in Wilhelmine Germany and the Nazis.

IIRC, during World War I Jews were generally somewhat sympathetic towards Germany, but that probably as much due to France and Russia being in the Entente as any actions taken by the Germans.
 
Would the return of a Hapsburg to rule Austria as Archduke or some such have any effect on nationalist desires for a greater Germany?

And I would agree that anti-Semitism was widespread throughout Europe and European countries around the world, part and parcel of the more generally racist outlook of that period I suppose. But would ‘everyday’ prejudice necessarily have led to racist legislation?
 
IIRC, during World War I Jews were generally somewhat sympathetic towards Germany, but that probably as much due to France and Russia being in the Entente as any actions taken by the Germans.

Sadly for them the reverse was not true, and the German anti-semitic right grew more powerful as the war progress - despite strong support for the war effort for German Jews.

I think there is a lot of under-estimation about the penetration of racist ideas in Germany.
 

General Zod

Banned
I think there is a lot of under-estimation about the penetration of racist ideas in Germany.

This is correct, as long as you don't single out Germany as a worst case, anti-semitism was widespread in Europe and France, Russia, and Poland had it as bad or worse than Germany.
 
This is correct, as long as you don't single out Germany as a worst case, anti-semitism was widespread in Europe and France, Russia, and Poland had it as bad or worse than Germany.

I have to disagree here.

Where is the German counterpart to the Croix de Feu, a psuedo-fascist organization whose leader had no problem visiting with the rabbis of Paris?
 
This is correct, as long as you don't single out Germany as a worst case, anti-semitism was widespread in Europe and France, Russia, and Poland had it as bad or worse than Germany.

I don't really see how this is measurable. The more important point is that even before victory/defeat the position of Jews improves in France and gets worse in Germany.
 

General Zod

Banned
I have to disagree here.

Where is the German counterpart to the Croix de Feu, a psuedo-fascist organization whose leader had no problem visiting with the rabbis of Paris?

Where is widespred antisemitism as a main point of policy among far right German opinion, before the Nazi ? The nationalists had a major chip on shoulder with German-oppressing Poles, not Jews. That respective leaders of main far right organizations in either country had a major beef or not with the Jews is butterfly more than anything else.
 
Where is widespred antisemitism as a main point of policy among far right German opinion, before the Nazi ? The nationalists had a major chip on shoulder with German-oppressing Poles, not Jews. That respective leaders of main far right organizations in either country had a major beef or not with the Jews is butterfly more than anything else.

Umm, it's pretty well established.

Ideological Origins of Nazi Imperialism, The Coming of the Third Reich, others.
 
Top