A North American Dictator

In reading about "TL 191", I was reminded about how the USA was not always the stable world superpower we know today. There were events such as the civil war and great depression that were really hard on the Americans. During this time (I'm thinking 1860s-1940s) there was a lot of turmoil that brought about the rise of totalitarianism in much of Europe, and the USA was by no means unaffected by said chaos.

So what events and historical turns would be needed to create a true American dictator in the style of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Mussolini? What kind of ideology would such a ruler use to control the people? Could a lasting CSA prompt the rise of a northern autocrat? How would the politics of an undemocratic US affect its culture and politics into the latter part of the 20th century?
 
There could conceivably have been some kind of right-wing coup against FDR, I guess. MacArthur et al?
 
oakvale

Don't be modest. Your own Making History goes down this route. A different, more capable Bilbo or a nastier Ford could have something more lasting. [Since its heading for a military coup-de-tar things could well stay pretty unpleasant, or even get worse].

LeoXiao

There are a number of paths that might lead to a dictatorial US. A few I can think of or mention:

a) If the planned assassinations after the civil war had hit their other targets you would probably have seen a strong backlash and much bloodier post-war period. Or if Lee had not opposed the idea of his men moving to a guerilla war, or had been ignored. If mutual bitterness and hostility had meant that the south have been under continued heavy military occupation for a generation or two you might have seen some military dictatorship resulting say.

b) Ofaloaf's "War of the Classes: A Gilded Age TL" has a major set of workers rebellions breaking out across the US in 1877. Although its pretty clear that they are ultimately put down - the TL is still ongoing - there are references to a future rebellion, whether peaceful or violent. Either a successful rebellion or its suppression could degenerate into something repressive.

c) Similarly, from my somewhat limited knowledge of US history, I get the impression that Teddy Roosevelt was somewhat lucky to become VP, because of his liberal views and hence to be President after McKinnely's assassination. Without the reforms of his period, especially the anti-trust actions the growing power of the very rich may have resulted in social unrest and again a form of oppressive government.

d) The other obvious chance is during the depression. Basically any time there's great social and cultural stress there is a danger of normal methods and rules being seen to have failed and hence people think of doing something different. Which in a basically democratic, law-abiding system generally means cutting corners somewhere and can drift into persistent nastiness.

Steve

Steve

There could conceivably have been some kind of right-wing coup against FDR, I guess. MacArthur et al?
 
b) Ofaloaf's "War of the Classes: A Gilded Age TL" has a major set of workers rebellions breaking out across the US in 1877. Although its pretty clear that they are ultimately put down - the TL is still ongoing - there are references to a future rebellion, whether peaceful or violent. Either a successful rebellion or its suppression could degenerate into something repressive.

A good scenario would be a Confederate Victory, and then something along the lines of Ofalaof's timeline occurring. The USA, being weakened, could collapse into the Socialist States of America.



In reading about "TL 191", I was reminded about how the USA was not always the stable world superpower we know today. There were events such as the civil war and great depression that were really hard on the Americans. During this time (I'm thinking 1860s-1940s) there was a lot of turmoil that brought about the rise of totalitarianism in much of Europe, and the USA was by no means unaffected by said chaos.

So what events and historical turns would be needed to create a true American dictator in the style of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Mussolini? What kind of ideology would such a ruler use to control the people? Could a lasting CSA prompt the rise of a northern autocrat? How would the politics of an undemocratic US affect its culture and politics into the latter part of the 20th century?

As I said above, the CSA would give the USA an enemy that could warrant Federalization, nationalism, and even militarism. Then, add the usual political turmoil that industrialized nations went through with Socialist movements and depressions, and you may have a good starting point for some sort of figure to rise, who will claim to want American Reunification.
 
A good scenario would be a Confederate Victory, and then something along the lines of Ofalaof's timeline occurring. The USA, being weakened, could collapse into the Socialist States of America.

I've been reading Ofalaof's TL and just love it to death, but I've a sneaking suspicion that his scenario would be more likely to come after a Confederate victory than not. There was a LOT of social/labour unrest in the US in the years after the Civil War, with more than one point where the whiff of revolution hung in the air. In a world where the Southerners had successfully given the Federal government the middle finger I could easily see some of the more radical Labour leaders saying to themselves, "well, if a bunch of slave-holding aristocrats could do it then why can't WE?"

As I said above, the CSA would give the USA an enemy that could warrant Federalization, nationalism, and even militarism. Then, add the usual political turmoil that industrialized nations went through with Socialist movements and depressions, and you may have a good starting point for some sort of figure to rise, who will claim to want American Reunification.

Interesting. An American revanchism...which doubtless would be made all the more virulent had the Confederates won with the help of foreign intervention.
 
I've done something similar in my own TL A Time to Remember, though the US resembles Lee's Singapore more than a true police state. In Canada with PM Maurice Duplessis, the story is somewhat different.
 
Roosevelt does not get elected in 32, someone with similar ideas takes power later but is more radical, as situation is worst in 36 than it was in 32. He is overthrowed in the business plot, the Revolutionnary war divides the USA and last for years, then various political factions waging a guerilla warfare against the victor for years.

No Hitler, weimar is taken down by a junta in 32, which never really dare to breake the Versaille treaty and does not have the guttes to do what it takes to pull the country out of the depression.
From the mid to latter 1940s, the Soviet-Union control Africa and Eurasia (including Britain) except for the Japanese mainland because of its past militarisation. Leftwing agitation in south america is supported by the Soviet-Union.
The USA entered WW2 in latter 1948, after the Sovietic invasion of the british isles.
Most of the war was spent protecting Indonesia, Greenland and Japan against the Red Airforce.
Hysteria about a Sovietic invasion through the Bering straight prompted the construction of the Alaska wall and there are a number of bunkers in Greenland as well.
Having started working on it much earlier, the Soviet-Union obtained the atomic bomb first and used it in retaliation against chemical and biological warfare.
New York and Los Angeles alone are struck several times with atomic bombs in the course of the war there are substantial casualties in continental north america to nuclear attacks.
Doesn´t work sending bombers against Eurasia, with such things as high altitude jet interceptors and radio-guided ballistic missiles, only submarines and infiltrator teams where able to bring nuclear attacks on Sovietic territory, instead intercontinental missiles will have to be developped.
Just throwing ressources at the project is not enough, better scientists, technicians and engineers are needed.
The situation looks dire and the country is ready for its saviour in the person of one Frederic Jagger.
 
Depending on one's definition of North America, if Mexico's included, this might become a little easier. I'm betraying my ignorance on the subject so I don't want a long drawn out debate, but isn't Diaz considered to have been a dictator in the 19th century? Same thing for Santa Ana, at least to the best of my recollection. It's been awhile since I've studied Mexican history so I don't mean to offend anyone with a greater depth of knowledge there. Still, that would seem to suggest that if you want a Dictatorship in either The US Canada or Mexico, its my suspicion that a Mexican Dictatorship might be the easiest to pull off. Still, no idea for a precise POD there.
 
Feric Jagger turns the USA into TTL equivalent of the 3rd Reich but starting with early 1960s instead of early 1930s technological level, annexe Canada and turn the rest of the americas into colonial possessions.
When Eurasiafrican Union of Socialist Sovietic Republics breakes appart in several large blocs at war with each others, America is able to intervene then impose itself, eventually Europe is unified with America into the Western Imperium.
The hundreds of millions deemed unworthy are used for spare organes or become weapon-testing equippement. Hundreds of millions more victimes in the global war.
At some time, the Western Imperium and Imperial Japan are sufficiently technologically advanced to intercept nuclear missiles and nuke continental asia, resulting in billions of human casualties.
Radioactive ashes of asia rain all over the world and turn it inhabitable for baseline humans but genetical engineering have made the new race resistant to radiations and able to be easely put in cryogenic sleep, allowing the Citizen population of the Western Imperium to hibernate over decades of thermonuclear winter.
In the peake of that winter, temperature at the equator is -50, no good for your average human. After the nuclear winter, climate stabilises at an average of +35, 21 warmer than today.
Except for that, post-war Earth and Sol becomes pretty much the Final Society of the Drakas. Several hundreds of times what Stalin ever did.

The ruines of a megacity turned into jungles, with recreated dinosaurs roaming loose, dominated by an omnious metallic pyramid 3 kilometers large.

Credits: Drakon, The Stone Dogs, The Iron Dream.
 
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