A non-wanky space WI

Thande

Donor
I enjoy WIs about the space programme(s) but I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of them are yearning/optimistic wanks, and you're left with the impression that if absolutely any decision was decided differently from OTL, the result would be a bigger and better space programme. In other words OTL is the worst of all possible worlds, which I don't think is very fair.

So, here's an idea for a WI that is different rather than better. What if NASA and the Soviets had (respectively) focused on the Big Gemini and the TKS?

These were extended versions of conical capsules (the Gemini for the US and the "Merkur" for Russia) with a cylindrical module at the back that would have served as an orbital habitat. The idea was that they could be used to build up a space station in orbit from these modules, and then the crew could return in just the capsule.

OTL the Russians experimented with the TKS but mainly just used it for the military manned spy satellite "Almaz" programme. When the Russians (and Americans) found that manned spy satellites weren't cost-effective, the programme was cancelled. However, elements of the module design were used in later Russian space stations. NASA's Big Gemini was cut, I believe, mainly to free up funding for the Apollo missions and Skylab was adopted instead on the space station front.

Now these spacecraft could have fulfilled part of the role of the Space Shuttle, and somewhat earlier (like the shuttle, they were meant to provide mainstream, all-purpose access to space, and might have lived up to that promise, unlike the shuttle). However they would probably be less versatile than the shuttle. So how about this for a 'different, not better' space WI?
 
hmm, sounds interesting and i hadn't heard of these before (but then again you don't really hear that much about cancelled programs)

what exactly do you think would happen if these had been concentrated on?

it may be if Big G was focused on this would mean an abandonment of the Apollo space mission (to land on the Moon) which i don't think would really happen (cause of the space race, soviets already had fist satelite, first dog, first man, first woman etc.) unless the soviets got there first i don't see them abandoning Apollo


although if they did, it'd likely be a soviet flag on the moon, and possibly dual space stations up there (mir and it's american counterpart)

dunno exactly what this would cause in the long run...
 

Thande

Donor
it may be if Big G was focused on this would mean an abandonment of the Apollo space mission (to land on the Moon) which i don't think would really happen (cause of the space race, soviets already had fist satelite, first dog, first man, first woman etc.) unless the soviets got there first i don't see them abandoning Apollo

Big G was actually mooted after the first Apollo moon landing. Although nowadays we tend to think of the evolution as Mercury->Gemini->Apollo, in actual fact both Gemini and Apollo were developed in parallel from Mercury. In some ways Gemini was more advanced than Apollo, though the craft alone could only carry two rather than three. NASA originally planned to expand Gemini and send that to the Moon, before developing Apollo instead.

In OTL, Apollo was used to service Skylab (which it wasn't very successful at) as well as going to the Moon. If Big Gemini had been used instead of Apollo-Skylab, and the latter just used for the Moon, you might have seen more success in early American space station activity. (The Russians would probably have been about equally successful to OTL but by different means).
 
The problem with spacewanks is that wanks are virtually the only option aside from complete abandonment of manned programmes. Would the big Gemini have been able to beat the Saturn/Apollo in open competition to meet Kennedy's stated policy of a moon landing? If not then you have the S/A, and the eventual abandonment of everything that it could have achieved such as permament space stations and moonbases.

As for the TKS, I understand that it was used as an adjunct to the Salyut 7 and Mir modules.
 

Thande

Donor
As for the TKS, I understand that it was used as an adjunct to the Salyut 7 and Mir modules.

It was used, but nothing like in so large a role as the designers had intended. I believe it had been hoped that it would supersede Soyuz.
 
Am I reading it wrong, or can't other spacecraft dock with the TKS once the 3 man capsule has returned to earth? It reminds me a bit of the MOL.
 

Archibald

Banned
Thande, I'm actually developing an alt-history based on Big Gemini instead of the space shuttle.

IMHO Big Gemini could have replaced Apollo CSM as lunar spacecraft.
I've made my own scheme to do this
BGL.gif
 
so many Wat If are here

Gemini
there were alot proposal for Gemini adance mission, MORL, USAF Gemini Mission (MOL)
McDonnell offert even Gemini for Lunar Direct Landing (with Saturn V)
or even cheaper way see:
http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/gemini.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm

but Nasa wandet Apollo
another problem was President Nixon
After Apollo 11 he just shot down the program under "Mission acomplish"
and almost shot down US Manned space Flight.

meaybe under President Robert Kennedy
he had taken the Manned Mars Flight Option to surpast his brother John
NASA chancel Space shuttle and start producktion of Saturn V and Saturn int version.

Space Shuttle again President Nixon left NASA only with this option 1972
orginal as cheap Crew rotation and servicing to big Space Station (to be launch with Saturn V)
but that Station was scrapt by evil Nixon.

the Space Shuttle end up als low cost satellites launcher !
things get worst as NASA and USAF start a Join Venture for developing Shuttle
USAF made harsh demands like bigger and heavy payload like Key-hole Spy satellites
Launch from Vandenberg AFB in to Polar Orbit !
also USAF demandet that Shuttle can return with out jetengine over bigger glidepad as NASA had plan

so from 6 men passengers and around 12 ton cargo small Shuttle
it became 8 men passengers with almost 30 ton cargo BIG Shuttle
wat incrase the cost to $ 6.744 billion in 1971 dollars (of $ 5.15 billion estimated)

so NASA and USAF take the cheapest to build variant of today Shuttle
and the most expensive launch cost and dangerus fligth hardware

a bitter ironie is that Saturn V alsmost made it as booster for Shuttle as Flyback F-1
but the developing cost were around $ 200 milion over budget of $ 5.15 billion estimated!
so they chanceld it. (irony $ 5.35 billion Flyback F-1 vrs $ 6.744 billion today Shuttle)

and the end if it ?
Space Shuttle killt 16 pepole (Challenger, Columbia disaster and Test disaster in 1978)
STS total cost is $150 billion (in 2005)/ 115 launches = $1.30 billion
so a launch of Shuttle cost about $1.3 billion (NASA say official its $433 Million )

and Saturn V ?
for a 2 stage Saturn V $180 Million in 1969 (build, Transport and Launch cost )
$900 Million in 2006 Dollar.
from this point is 115 Saturn V are $47 billion cheaper as Shuttle
but it geting cheaper with Saturn-INT

R&D of $870 Million adapt Saturn V into Saturn INT Version (in Dollar value of 2006)
the Saturn INT-20 build and Launch cost are $301 Million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_INT-20
the Saturn INT-21 build and Launch cost are $373 Million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_INT-21

so 115 launches with INT-20 cost in total $35 billion dollar ! (include R&D)
4,28 cheaper as Shuttle
not include are cost for 115 Big Gemini space craft.
 

Archibald

Banned
TKS and Big Gemini have lots of things in common, notably a 4.5 m diameter, a mass between 15 and 20 tons (well, bigger variants of Big G were planned)

The TKS was to Soyouz what Gemini-B was to Apollo : a military spacecraft for a military station, not a replacement.
 
Thande, I'm actually developing an alt-history based on Big Gemini instead of the space shuttle.

IMHO Big Gemini could have replaced Apollo CSM as lunar spacecraft.
I've made my own scheme to do this
BGL.gif

COOL :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

little contercheck
Big Gemini Mass is 15590 kg (Delta V of 350m/sec for LEO)
LM taxi mass is 14700 kg (orginal LM Mass: 14696 kg)
so no problem for Saturn V, but the S-IVB has to be stretched for more fuel and J-2S engine
with S-IVB make a LOI into 108 x 306 km lunar orbit
the Big Gemini need another mavover in to 97 x 119 km lunar orbit
then LM Lands, mission on moon, then starts in lunar orbit 97 x 119 km
then the Big Gemini makes rendevous with LM
and fly back to Earth (minium Delta V of 1010,35 m/sec)
so you need only 78% more fuel as in Big Gemini for LEO
 
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Thande

Donor
Thande, I'm actually developing an alt-history based on Big Gemini instead of the space shuttle.

IMHO Big Gemini could have replaced Apollo CSM as lunar spacecraft.
I've made my own scheme to do this
Cool!

Of course, that would have disadvantages as well as advantages...which is a good thing TL-wise, see my opening sentences.
 

Archibald

Banned
Forget to mention the mission profile, which is rather different from Apollo CSM.

Saturn V is quite dead (remember the discussion we had at the secret project board ?)

So, like Orion, there's a rendez-vous in LEO between
- Big G
and
- S-IVB / LM.

Both are launched by the same vehicle, the Saturn INT-20. Why this one ? With a castrated S-I, no S-II, and a S-IVB shared with USAF SLS, its aim is to calm the OMB by diminishing costs around the harsh 1969-1974 period.

As its payload is only 50 tons, when launching the 135 tons S-IVB+LM combo it is boosted by two 4-segments /1800 tons thrust /156 inch SRBs (developped by USAF for the SLS, which replace Titan III in my ATL.)

Those SRBs are very close from the Shuttle SRBs, they have parachutes and fall on the Atlantic ocean. Once again, the aim is to avoid OMB anger :)

As my Big G is launched by Saturn INT-20, it's not the 15 tons /Titan III variant , rather the much bigger one at 47 tons...

Thank you for the imput both of you!

Honestly, the thing which most worry me about LBG (Lunar Big G!) is the hatch in the heatshield.
I fear a Columbia scenario, the hatch blewing up at 40 000 kph while returning earth... that's a potential risk. but as you say Thande
that would have disadvantages as well as advantages
 
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Thande

Donor
Very nice.

Just out of interest, would the Soviets be able to use TKS to try a Moonshot if it were possible with Big G? IIRC, their major problems in OTL were with the N-1 launcher rather than with the hardware that they would use once they got there.
 

Archibald

Banned
Footnote : wants an European TKS / Big G spacecraft ? Imagine that in 1988 and after Challenger, ESA adopted the Bae Multirole Capsule instead of Hermes.

The 7-tons capsule would have flew in 1993 ontop of an Ariane 44L. PErfectly feasible!

Then graft this capsule onto the ATV... boost a bit Ariane 5 LEO payload et voila, a 27 tons ESA TKS-like spacecraft :D

I have to translate this into english and post it here ;)
 

Archibald

Banned
Very nice.

Just out of interest, would the Soviets be able to use TKS to try a Moonshot if it were possible with Big G? IIRC, their major problems in OTL were with the N-1 launcher rather than with the hardware that they would use once they got there.

Hehehe... no need for the TKS! They already had their LEK, a big L3 follow-on.

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/lek.htm

I agree that you'll need a much better rocket to boost that thing to the Moon. I consider the N-1 a lost cause, even in the N-1F variant.
I prefer using the monster UR-700, which at least has a reasonable number of engines! http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ur700.htm

But for all that you need to break Tchelomei isolation. To do that I've imagined that after N-1 and Soyuz 11 disasters in 1971 Brejnev was ousted of power (and Ustinov with him!) in favor of Kossygin... Tchelomei is back!
 

Thande

Donor
Footnote : wants an European TKS / Big G spacecraft ? Imagine that in 1988 and after Challenger, ESA adopted the Bae Multirole Capsule instead of Hermes.

The 7-tons capsule would have flew in 1993 ontop of an Ariane 44L. PErfectly feasible!

Then graft this capsule onto the ATV... boost a bit Ariane 5 LEO payload et voila, a 27 tons ESA TKS-like spacecraft :D
That does seem a bit less likely to be cancelled than Hermes (unless, of course, Big G has a "Challenger" disaster like the one you mentioned above).
 
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