Cryostorm
Donor
If he does, we might just end up seeing a TL where Scotland and Wales are independent along with a united Ireland.
A New Balance
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
I'd doubt it. More than likely the U.S. would desire for the continued existence of a whole British Isle in the same vein that they did Japan or Germany in OTL. Ireland will definitely be independent still, but I'm not sure of the logistics of a United Ireland. It'd be a tough job to do, and there'd likely be a lot of conflict still.
Cryostorm
Donor
If the world powers could move every person of German descent east of the Oder to Germany in OTL I think North Ireland is doable TTL.
All I have to say is there is a lot of war left to fight and the United States isn't the only party setting at the peace table on the side of the victors. So how things turn out is still a mystery at the moment. All I will say is anything is possible at this stage of the game.
There is Brazil who is going to be here. They are a great power and have weight to throw around. Europe who the fuck knows at this stage.
Edit: Further think about this, the Soviet Union could very well be a victor here and the US decides it doesn't have the moxy to try for a mainland invasion of Europe and they cut a deal with the Soviets. Anything is possible. My point though is the US isn't the only one who will be sitting at this table post war.
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To be quite honest, I thought a Soviet mainland victory might be where this was going, and I honestly love the idea of that, though I hope the Kaiser makes it out alright. He can live a nice life in a hold out France (if they get American defenses in time) or in the States.
The Dutch Riddle
Amsterdam
Royal Palace of Amsterdam
May 27 1939
For the Netherlands their position in the world was getting harder and harder to maintain. They were the only colonial power not to be actively fighting in this truly massive war. A war which was spreading day by day, hour by hour. Which was making the Dutch position more untenable. The Dutch Air Force had regularly challenged British, Belgian, and German aircraft that was over flying their air space in Europe. They already had a small number of aircrews from those nations interned in their nation right at the moment. Then in their East Indies Colony the Japanese were getting more and more forcible on wanting to take control of them but had yet to launch a proper invasion of those colonies at the moment.
This was giving the Dutch politicians and diplomats few and fewer cards to play. The Dutch knew that to allow them to maintain the crown jewels of their colonial empire, i.e. the Dutch East Indies, the status quo needed to be maintained. Yet that status quo was not only broken but it was now in thousands of pieces as empires across the globe fought each other for the rights to be the master of the world. They weren’t in a position to defend their European homeland and their colonial empire and they knew it. They had no want to fight a war but they were seeing no way of getting around it right now. They were going to have choose a side soon and fight.
Only there was one major problem. The bulk of their military strength was in the Dutch East Indies. Their European holdings were only lightly defended from a land invasion which forced them to admit they would have to side with Berlin. However the treatment Berlin had been performing to European nations that hadn’t been their allies prior to the war was shocking to the Dutch. Both Switzerland and Denmark had been invaded. The Danish turned into unwilling allies of Berlin. Norway had been invaded by the British which in turn had caused the Swedish and Germans to perform their own counter invasion with the Germans dropping an airborne division on Oslo with the German Navy driving up Oslofjord. The Germans forced the Norwegians to put a more friendly prime minister into power instead of one who was trying to play hardball with them.
For the Dutch it was a question of how to go forward. They knew they couldn’t stand up to the Germans and their allies and win and they knew it. However they wanted to hold on to their East Indies Colony come all else. If they side with Berlin, Tokyo would use it as a reason to invade their East Indies Colony. It was clear that the Germans were much more focused on Europe than Asia. America was focused on the Americas as was Brazil. So that meant the Dutch East Indies were going to fall as the Dutch wouldn’t be to reinforce their colony there. That created its own problems as the Dutch hold on the East Indies was becoming more difficult with every passing year.
There were a number of different groups throughout the Dutch East Indies all pushing for independence of the colony. The saving grace for the Dutch was these groups weren’t united. They did have a number of those leaders in the prisons. Other leaders however had taken home in Tokyo after being escaped efforts to crush their efforts. Tokyo was more than happy to host their movements. That was because they wanted puppets to do their bedding for their own economic reasons there. If they leave for if the islands of if they fell many in Amsterdam questioned if they could return to them and regain control there.
Unknown to anyone in Amsterdam things would soon be out of their hands.
Royal Palace of Amsterdam
May 27 1939
For the Netherlands their position in the world was getting harder and harder to maintain. They were the only colonial power not to be actively fighting in this truly massive war. A war which was spreading day by day, hour by hour. Which was making the Dutch position more untenable. The Dutch Air Force had regularly challenged British, Belgian, and German aircraft that was over flying their air space in Europe. They already had a small number of aircrews from those nations interned in their nation right at the moment. Then in their East Indies Colony the Japanese were getting more and more forcible on wanting to take control of them but had yet to launch a proper invasion of those colonies at the moment.
This was giving the Dutch politicians and diplomats few and fewer cards to play. The Dutch knew that to allow them to maintain the crown jewels of their colonial empire, i.e. the Dutch East Indies, the status quo needed to be maintained. Yet that status quo was not only broken but it was now in thousands of pieces as empires across the globe fought each other for the rights to be the master of the world. They weren’t in a position to defend their European homeland and their colonial empire and they knew it. They had no want to fight a war but they were seeing no way of getting around it right now. They were going to have choose a side soon and fight.
Only there was one major problem. The bulk of their military strength was in the Dutch East Indies. Their European holdings were only lightly defended from a land invasion which forced them to admit they would have to side with Berlin. However the treatment Berlin had been performing to European nations that hadn’t been their allies prior to the war was shocking to the Dutch. Both Switzerland and Denmark had been invaded. The Danish turned into unwilling allies of Berlin. Norway had been invaded by the British which in turn had caused the Swedish and Germans to perform their own counter invasion with the Germans dropping an airborne division on Oslo with the German Navy driving up Oslofjord. The Germans forced the Norwegians to put a more friendly prime minister into power instead of one who was trying to play hardball with them.
For the Dutch it was a question of how to go forward. They knew they couldn’t stand up to the Germans and their allies and win and they knew it. However they wanted to hold on to their East Indies Colony come all else. If they side with Berlin, Tokyo would use it as a reason to invade their East Indies Colony. It was clear that the Germans were much more focused on Europe than Asia. America was focused on the Americas as was Brazil. So that meant the Dutch East Indies were going to fall as the Dutch wouldn’t be to reinforce their colony there. That created its own problems as the Dutch hold on the East Indies was becoming more difficult with every passing year.
There were a number of different groups throughout the Dutch East Indies all pushing for independence of the colony. The saving grace for the Dutch was these groups weren’t united. They did have a number of those leaders in the prisons. Other leaders however had taken home in Tokyo after being escaped efforts to crush their efforts. Tokyo was more than happy to host their movements. That was because they wanted puppets to do their bedding for their own economic reasons there. If they leave for if the islands of if they fell many in Amsterdam questioned if they could return to them and regain control there.
Unknown to anyone in Amsterdam things would soon be out of their hands.
Craig
Banned
That suggests that Our Friends, the Germans are in for some difficult times. Shame.
Not that TRUST has ever been a big element of foreign relations, but any nation which trusts the Soviet is a nation of idiots.
Admiral Halsey
Banned
Think about it. What nation could fucking invade the US? Even if mainland Europe is overrun Japan is fucking doomed and Russia has literally no navy that could threaten either the US or Germany let alone both. No matter who wins in Europe the US is not giving up anything it capture.
I don't understand why gun control is such a heated issue for America at this time. Gun control didn't become an issue until the 60's and 70's when crazies were able to get there hands on automatics and other assault weapons and go on shooting sprees, here psycopaths aren't able to do a lot of damage and anyone who goes on a shooting rampage can easily get taken down by cops. Even with the recent surge of New Deal Liberalism, most of America is still socially conservative so most Democrats would be heavily against gun control. It shouldn't even be a political topic at the moment.
Gun control isn't a heated debate. The 1920s even without Prohibition in the US they were a fairly violent time. But not as violent as OTL but still violent. There was a push to simply removed the ITL BARs, Tommy Guns, and saw off shot guns out of the hands of people. The problem was the law failed the test of Constitutional Muster as there was an effort at something akin to the OTL National Firearms Act of 1934. But unlike OTL the government lost at the SCOTUS instead of winning its case. They don't want to take away your grandpa's old shotgun and things like that it was just they didn't want everyone to be able to buy machine guns. It failed and the politicans moved on to other things but there is enough in both parties that they want to do something but nothing has been done.
Veracruz
Landing Craft LCP-349
Off the Coast of Veracruz
June 6 1939
1st Lieutenant Harley Williams was once again leading men into leading into combat after that mixer on Montserrat back in February. Unlike Montserrat this was going to be more than a single day operation and Williams knew it. The 3rd Marine Division had been selected along with the 7th Infantry Division had been tasked to take Veracruz. So far in the war against the Mexicans the US had been mounting an overland campaign out of Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Rio Grande and have been pushing the Mexicans back. Yet now it was time to take the city that had always been the key to taking Mexico City, Veracruz.
Operation Fury was going to be the third time the United States had assaulted the city in history. And if scuttlebutt was true it would be the last time. From what Williams was hearing the higher ups were planning to annex everything north of the Tropic of Cancer and turn Veracruz into an enclave. The rest of Mexico was going to be broken up into a half of dozen different nations and bared from having a military. Then again he had heard a lot of other tells of scuttlebutt about the fate of Mexico after this war. Some were far fetch where others were realistic. For the Texas born Marine officer it was far beyond his paygrade at the moment.
What snapped Williams back to the present as he was taking a moment to relax before he got thrown into the shit again was the sound of a large piece of artillery firing from in front of him. As part of the massive arms deal the Mexicans had made with the British were for a number of old BL 12 inch 40 caliber naval guns that the British had in storage and was just collecting dust. After some work to refurbished these guns they had been shipped to Mexico to be use as fortress artillery. Plans had been to put these in every major port in Mexico but the war had stopped that. The US knew about them but believed the guns weren’t operational yet, they had been wrong. But the crew manning the two operational guns out of the six that were in Mexico weren’t Mexicans. They were members of the British Army Group assigned to help training the Mexican Army.
Soon after the 12 inch guns opened up on the heavy cruisers that were supporting the landing, Mexican manned BL 60 pounders started opening up focusing on the landing craft that were charging the beach. “Lock and load!” Williams called out as 60 pound high explosive shells started landing around his landing craft. No one climbed down a cargo net at seat with a loaded fire arm. They were still 3 minutes out from landing. Williams pushed a 50 round drum magazine into his M1917 and pulled back the bolt. It was the only drum magazine Williams had with all of the other magazines being 30 round stick magazines.
The navy puke who was driving the boat yelled out, “30 seconds!”
“ONCE THE RAMP DROPS I WANT YOU TO MOVE YOUR FUCKING ASSES! I WILL SEE YOU ON THE BEACH!” Just as he said that one of the landing craft to his right when up in a major fireball taking a direct hit from a 60 pound gun. Then there was a series of whistle and the front ramp dropped. Before even the first man moved the landing craft was hit with a hail of machine gun fire. “OVER THE SIDE!” Williams screamed as he moved to jump over the side himself. Of his platoon of 28, only 7 got off the landing craft alive.
The sound of the water around him filled Williams’ ears as he struggled to get to the surface. He breeched the surface briefly and gasped in air before going back under water. Water that was quickly becoming blood red from dead and dying Marines. He pushed forward till he was finally able to get his feet touching the beach and he came up for air again. Pushing forward Williams looked around and made for a large landing obstacle. If gave him cover from the hail of British and Mexican fire. Looking around he didn’t see anyone he knew from his own platoon.
“COLOR GET THESE MEN MOVING!” Williams yelled when he saw the company’s color sergeant at an obstacle two over from his own. After taking a moment to view how things were going.
The Color Sergeant started yelling his orders. Williams took aim and fired his 1917 at what was moving targets. “MOVE!” He yelled after that burst of fire. He when up and started running again only to throw himself in the dirt after three seconds of running. Repeated a few times he finally got to the seawall. He looked out into the Gulf and saw one of the cruisers that was supporting the landings burning. The sea was filled with damaged or sinking landing craft and the beach was a cluster fuck. It was going to be a long day for Williams.
Off the Coast of Veracruz
June 6 1939
1st Lieutenant Harley Williams was once again leading men into leading into combat after that mixer on Montserrat back in February. Unlike Montserrat this was going to be more than a single day operation and Williams knew it. The 3rd Marine Division had been selected along with the 7th Infantry Division had been tasked to take Veracruz. So far in the war against the Mexicans the US had been mounting an overland campaign out of Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Rio Grande and have been pushing the Mexicans back. Yet now it was time to take the city that had always been the key to taking Mexico City, Veracruz.
Operation Fury was going to be the third time the United States had assaulted the city in history. And if scuttlebutt was true it would be the last time. From what Williams was hearing the higher ups were planning to annex everything north of the Tropic of Cancer and turn Veracruz into an enclave. The rest of Mexico was going to be broken up into a half of dozen different nations and bared from having a military. Then again he had heard a lot of other tells of scuttlebutt about the fate of Mexico after this war. Some were far fetch where others were realistic. For the Texas born Marine officer it was far beyond his paygrade at the moment.
What snapped Williams back to the present as he was taking a moment to relax before he got thrown into the shit again was the sound of a large piece of artillery firing from in front of him. As part of the massive arms deal the Mexicans had made with the British were for a number of old BL 12 inch 40 caliber naval guns that the British had in storage and was just collecting dust. After some work to refurbished these guns they had been shipped to Mexico to be use as fortress artillery. Plans had been to put these in every major port in Mexico but the war had stopped that. The US knew about them but believed the guns weren’t operational yet, they had been wrong. But the crew manning the two operational guns out of the six that were in Mexico weren’t Mexicans. They were members of the British Army Group assigned to help training the Mexican Army.
Soon after the 12 inch guns opened up on the heavy cruisers that were supporting the landing, Mexican manned BL 60 pounders started opening up focusing on the landing craft that were charging the beach. “Lock and load!” Williams called out as 60 pound high explosive shells started landing around his landing craft. No one climbed down a cargo net at seat with a loaded fire arm. They were still 3 minutes out from landing. Williams pushed a 50 round drum magazine into his M1917 and pulled back the bolt. It was the only drum magazine Williams had with all of the other magazines being 30 round stick magazines.
The navy puke who was driving the boat yelled out, “30 seconds!”
“ONCE THE RAMP DROPS I WANT YOU TO MOVE YOUR FUCKING ASSES! I WILL SEE YOU ON THE BEACH!” Just as he said that one of the landing craft to his right when up in a major fireball taking a direct hit from a 60 pound gun. Then there was a series of whistle and the front ramp dropped. Before even the first man moved the landing craft was hit with a hail of machine gun fire. “OVER THE SIDE!” Williams screamed as he moved to jump over the side himself. Of his platoon of 28, only 7 got off the landing craft alive.
The sound of the water around him filled Williams’ ears as he struggled to get to the surface. He breeched the surface briefly and gasped in air before going back under water. Water that was quickly becoming blood red from dead and dying Marines. He pushed forward till he was finally able to get his feet touching the beach and he came up for air again. Pushing forward Williams looked around and made for a large landing obstacle. If gave him cover from the hail of British and Mexican fire. Looking around he didn’t see anyone he knew from his own platoon.
“COLOR GET THESE MEN MOVING!” Williams yelled when he saw the company’s color sergeant at an obstacle two over from his own. After taking a moment to view how things were going.
The Color Sergeant started yelling his orders. Williams took aim and fired his 1917 at what was moving targets. “MOVE!” He yelled after that burst of fire. He when up and started running again only to throw himself in the dirt after three seconds of running. Repeated a few times he finally got to the seawall. He looked out into the Gulf and saw one of the cruisers that was supporting the landings burning. The sea was filled with damaged or sinking landing craft and the beach was a cluster fuck. It was going to be a long day for Williams.
I appreciate your reply to Kaiser Chris, but maybe you didn't see mine about a page back.
Gun control arose in the USA to keep blacks from fighting back against the KKK. The NRA was actually formed in the 1880s Because of this.
And in a world war, a well armed populace is an advantage. Even letting them have military grade automatic weapons.
I'm retired military and a history buff, and just want to say this is one of the best timelines here!
Bombs Away
American Bomber Stream
Over the North Atlantic
June 17 1939
With the failure of the British efforts at invading Iceland and the follow up counter invasion of Iceland the US had been working on turning Iceland into a massive unsinkable aircraft carrier to attack the British Isles. True a number of runways had already been built up prior to the war, but between the invasion and British bombing efforts during their invasion effort had damaged these runways and other infrastructure needed to support the bomber bases on the island. Yet today the first raid of B-29s[1] to target the British Homeland. Today’s target was in Glasgow, the target itself was the shipyards on the River Clyde.
The raid was small with only two wings being assigned to this raid. That gave the raid just over 120 aircraft between six squadrons. However current American planning wasn’t calling for invasion of Scotland till the 1942 or 43 time frame. The focus of the US at the moment was ending the cluster of the different wars in Americas than turn its focus on Europe. Then it would turn on Asia and give them the undivided attention of the United States. Assuming Japan hadn’t folded by then. This however didn’t mean they couldn’t give the British some loving in the meantime. That was where this bomber raid was coming in.
American bomber doctrine was for large mass raids targeting industry. During the interwar years the US had put the time into designing bomb sights that could hit targets from well over 30,000 feet into the air with an aim point measured in feet. That was all well in fine over the Great Planes, but in combat it was proving to be trickier. The bombing raids against Mexico and Colombia had proven already that getting bombs on target with someone shooting at you was a hell of a lot harder than when you had the ability to do the aiming without having to worry about living one second to the next. It still wasn’t stopping the bomber wing in the army air force from pushing the idea.
The raid on Glasgow through would make the first time any American heavy bombers had faced a first rate air-defense. The British had been planning for this day before the ink of the Treaty of New York was even dry. The British had a massive radar line on the Outer Hebrides that worked with radar in Ireland and other islands in Scotland. This information was then passed on to a command center at Fort Williams Scotland. From the base in Fort Williams the RAF could vector fighters on to incoming bombers out to 50 miles before the first of them had cross into British Air Space with their single seat fighters. The British also had an another surprise for the Americans.
With the total failure of the Fleet Air Arm and their pre-war ideas the RAF had been given the driver seat on aircraft design and to some degree aircraft production. This was why the first operational squadron of Lighting[2] Fighters were being vectored on to the American bomber stream. The twin engine aircraft had a total of 12 .303 machine guns in the nose of the aircraft that in theory would wreck any bomber that came in its sights. The Lighting however wasn’t a nimble fighter. But with no American fighters operating this far out from Iceland the RAF pushed for production of Lightings as the Fleet Air Arm was being retrained and equipped with single engine fighters.
Then the British squadron of Lightings attacked the American B-29 about 90 miles from the coast of the British Isles. The British however were learning that their .303 ammo wasn’t the best of bring down B-29s and the American .50 ammo was much harder hitting. But it was both sides sending their best against their best. Aircraft on both sides were falling out of the air. At about 10 miles out from the coast the Lightings pulled off Mustang and Thunder fighters started to jump on the Americans. Again more aircraft were falling out of the sky on both sides. The B-29 was well armored and the .303 was a weak round to bring down an aircraft but still enough .303 hits was enough to bring down one. Finally the American bomber stream got over their target and dropped their bombs. There only one problem, they were 15 miles away from their aim point.
[1] B-17, F Model would give you a good idea where the aircraft is right now.
[2] Early Model Bristol Beaufighter
Over the North Atlantic
June 17 1939
With the failure of the British efforts at invading Iceland and the follow up counter invasion of Iceland the US had been working on turning Iceland into a massive unsinkable aircraft carrier to attack the British Isles. True a number of runways had already been built up prior to the war, but between the invasion and British bombing efforts during their invasion effort had damaged these runways and other infrastructure needed to support the bomber bases on the island. Yet today the first raid of B-29s[1] to target the British Homeland. Today’s target was in Glasgow, the target itself was the shipyards on the River Clyde.
The raid was small with only two wings being assigned to this raid. That gave the raid just over 120 aircraft between six squadrons. However current American planning wasn’t calling for invasion of Scotland till the 1942 or 43 time frame. The focus of the US at the moment was ending the cluster of the different wars in Americas than turn its focus on Europe. Then it would turn on Asia and give them the undivided attention of the United States. Assuming Japan hadn’t folded by then. This however didn’t mean they couldn’t give the British some loving in the meantime. That was where this bomber raid was coming in.
American bomber doctrine was for large mass raids targeting industry. During the interwar years the US had put the time into designing bomb sights that could hit targets from well over 30,000 feet into the air with an aim point measured in feet. That was all well in fine over the Great Planes, but in combat it was proving to be trickier. The bombing raids against Mexico and Colombia had proven already that getting bombs on target with someone shooting at you was a hell of a lot harder than when you had the ability to do the aiming without having to worry about living one second to the next. It still wasn’t stopping the bomber wing in the army air force from pushing the idea.
The raid on Glasgow through would make the first time any American heavy bombers had faced a first rate air-defense. The British had been planning for this day before the ink of the Treaty of New York was even dry. The British had a massive radar line on the Outer Hebrides that worked with radar in Ireland and other islands in Scotland. This information was then passed on to a command center at Fort Williams Scotland. From the base in Fort Williams the RAF could vector fighters on to incoming bombers out to 50 miles before the first of them had cross into British Air Space with their single seat fighters. The British also had an another surprise for the Americans.
With the total failure of the Fleet Air Arm and their pre-war ideas the RAF had been given the driver seat on aircraft design and to some degree aircraft production. This was why the first operational squadron of Lighting[2] Fighters were being vectored on to the American bomber stream. The twin engine aircraft had a total of 12 .303 machine guns in the nose of the aircraft that in theory would wreck any bomber that came in its sights. The Lighting however wasn’t a nimble fighter. But with no American fighters operating this far out from Iceland the RAF pushed for production of Lightings as the Fleet Air Arm was being retrained and equipped with single engine fighters.
Then the British squadron of Lightings attacked the American B-29 about 90 miles from the coast of the British Isles. The British however were learning that their .303 ammo wasn’t the best of bring down B-29s and the American .50 ammo was much harder hitting. But it was both sides sending their best against their best. Aircraft on both sides were falling out of the air. At about 10 miles out from the coast the Lightings pulled off Mustang and Thunder fighters started to jump on the Americans. Again more aircraft were falling out of the sky on both sides. The B-29 was well armored and the .303 was a weak round to bring down an aircraft but still enough .303 hits was enough to bring down one. Finally the American bomber stream got over their target and dropped their bombs. There only one problem, they were 15 miles away from their aim point.
[1] B-17, F Model would give you a good idea where the aircraft is right now.
[2] Early Model Bristol Beaufighter
Admiral Halsey
Banned
To be fair if the B-29 is anything like the OTL B-17 it's supposed to be like then a .303 ain't really gonna do shit. The British will learn fast they're gonna aircraft armed with cannons to reliably bring down US bombers.
Well that's what I meant by weak, weakly armed. The Me-110 had rifle caliber MGs too but also a pair of twenty millimeter cannons.
Admiral Halsey
Banned
True but OTL at the early versions of the Spitfire and Hurricane were armed only with .303s themselves. The British learned from that real quick though. Wonder if Hispano still made the HS.404 or not otherwise i'm at a loss of where the British get their cannons from.