Thats true. I have to say, I also never thought i'd read a timeline, or to be more specific an alternate world wars timeline, with and France switching allegiances from Britain to Germany and Austria-Hungary switching allegiances from Germany to Britain. Almost every other alternate world wars timeline that I've seen or read has had an alternate WWII with Britain and France and Germany and Austria-Hungary still being allied. All in all, I thought it was cool to see this cliche was turned on its head. This also reminds me of the OTL Diplomatic Revolution of 1756, where Austria switched allegiances from Britain to France and Prussia became an ally of Britain as a result. It wouldn't surprise me if this comparison was made by historians IITL.
A New Balance
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
Thats true. I have to say, I also never thought i'd read a timeline, or to be more specific an alternate world wars timeline, with and France switching allegiances from Britain to Germany and Austria-Hungary switching allegiances from Germany to Britain. Almost every other alternate world wars timeline that I've seen or read has had an alternate WWII with Britain and France and Germany and Austria-Hungary still being allied. All in all, I thought it was cool to see this cliche was turned on its head. This also reminds me of the OTL Diplomatic Revolution of 1756, where Austria switched allegiances from Britain to France and Prussia became an ally of Britain as a result. It wouldn't surprise me if this comparison was made by historians IITL.
A Busy Day Pt 2
Washington DC
White House
January 23 1939
President Carl Olsen was currently sitting behind the Theodore Roosevelt Desk. The desk had a number of microphones from all of the national radio stations were sitting on the desk. Behind him was the 52-star flag of the United States was standing behind him. Beside the American Flag, was the Presidential Flag that was normally there. What was unusable about the flag set up was the fact the US Army, Navy, and Marine Corp standards with their campaign streamers there. Normally those flags were kept elsewhere but Olsen made it point to have those flags for this as a signal to everyone. In front of Olsen were the different members of the national radio stations, all five of them. Further there was a video camera team from the local TV station for what would be the first television address of a United States President. Even through the Baltimore-DC area was one of only four areas in the US to have active TV stations, Olsen thought it important to have them here as well as it was a rapidly expanding medium. Then there were the film crew who was recording this for the big screen for later use.
The sound tech for TV station spoke, “Mister President you go live in five, four, three.” At two he switched to a finger count and held up two than one finger. He then pointed to the president.
“My fellow Americans, I wished I have better news to share with you today. Yet this is not the case. As many you are aware just under two days ago an unholy alliance of the communist in Peru and the fascist in Bolivia and Argentina attacked Chile without provocation or cause. We have reason to believe this attack was master mind by their masters in Moscow and London. These nations were possibly even ordered to attack by their overseas masters.”
Olsen took a deep breath before going on. “Over the past two years both the communist and fascist have pushed and pushed against us and others. So far, we have only stood our ground and not actively stuck back against them. They have taken our silence as we tried to final peaceful end so we could live in peace as a green light to expand their borders without fear of reprisal from us. They have grown bold and believed we would not react to this blatant attack. They were sadly mistaking. Right now, our ambassadors to these nations are delivering notes to these government of this unprovoked attack with demands that they are to withdraw from any Chilean territory they have taken and agree to pay the Chileans an indemnity for this dastardly attack we will have no choice but to come to the aid of the Chileans.” Olsen failed to leave out the fact that the he had given the three nations that had attacked Chile 96 hours to meet these demands.
“The communist and fascist are not just a threat to us, but others. As such we have reached out to our friends in the German Empire. They agreed that this attack without a cause is not only a threat to ourselves, but them as well. They agreed that they will ally with us so we can defend the world against this evil.”
Jaws dropped as Olsen spoke. An alliance with an European nation was almost unheard of in United States History. Outside the alliance with the French during the American Revolutionary War, the US had stayed away from allying with European nations. Even the fight to get NATO formed was an uphill battle. Even during the Great War, the US didn’t formally ally with the Central Powers. They fought that war as a co-belligerence of the Central Powers. This was simply ground breaking.
Unknown to the people listening to this speech by Olsen, an alliance between America and Germany had been in the works since December last year. However, events have forced them to sign the treaty far sooner than either would had liked to. They had already been exchanging technology, including jet engine, RADAR, ASDIC, chemical weapons, and nuclear technology just to name a few items that the two were passing back and fore so they could better defend their nation from the coming hordes of communists and fascists as a sign of good faith.
White House
January 23 1939
President Carl Olsen was currently sitting behind the Theodore Roosevelt Desk. The desk had a number of microphones from all of the national radio stations were sitting on the desk. Behind him was the 52-star flag of the United States was standing behind him. Beside the American Flag, was the Presidential Flag that was normally there. What was unusable about the flag set up was the fact the US Army, Navy, and Marine Corp standards with their campaign streamers there. Normally those flags were kept elsewhere but Olsen made it point to have those flags for this as a signal to everyone. In front of Olsen were the different members of the national radio stations, all five of them. Further there was a video camera team from the local TV station for what would be the first television address of a United States President. Even through the Baltimore-DC area was one of only four areas in the US to have active TV stations, Olsen thought it important to have them here as well as it was a rapidly expanding medium. Then there were the film crew who was recording this for the big screen for later use.
The sound tech for TV station spoke, “Mister President you go live in five, four, three.” At two he switched to a finger count and held up two than one finger. He then pointed to the president.
“My fellow Americans, I wished I have better news to share with you today. Yet this is not the case. As many you are aware just under two days ago an unholy alliance of the communist in Peru and the fascist in Bolivia and Argentina attacked Chile without provocation or cause. We have reason to believe this attack was master mind by their masters in Moscow and London. These nations were possibly even ordered to attack by their overseas masters.”
Olsen took a deep breath before going on. “Over the past two years both the communist and fascist have pushed and pushed against us and others. So far, we have only stood our ground and not actively stuck back against them. They have taken our silence as we tried to final peaceful end so we could live in peace as a green light to expand their borders without fear of reprisal from us. They have grown bold and believed we would not react to this blatant attack. They were sadly mistaking. Right now, our ambassadors to these nations are delivering notes to these government of this unprovoked attack with demands that they are to withdraw from any Chilean territory they have taken and agree to pay the Chileans an indemnity for this dastardly attack we will have no choice but to come to the aid of the Chileans.” Olsen failed to leave out the fact that the he had given the three nations that had attacked Chile 96 hours to meet these demands.
“The communist and fascist are not just a threat to us, but others. As such we have reached out to our friends in the German Empire. They agreed that this attack without a cause is not only a threat to ourselves, but them as well. They agreed that they will ally with us so we can defend the world against this evil.”
Jaws dropped as Olsen spoke. An alliance with an European nation was almost unheard of in United States History. Outside the alliance with the French during the American Revolutionary War, the US had stayed away from allying with European nations. Even the fight to get NATO formed was an uphill battle. Even during the Great War, the US didn’t formally ally with the Central Powers. They fought that war as a co-belligerence of the Central Powers. This was simply ground breaking.
Unknown to the people listening to this speech by Olsen, an alliance between America and Germany had been in the works since December last year. However, events have forced them to sign the treaty far sooner than either would had liked to. They had already been exchanging technology, including jet engine, RADAR, ASDIC, chemical weapons, and nuclear technology just to name a few items that the two were passing back and fore so they could better defend their nation from the coming hordes of communists and fascists as a sign of good faith.
Honestly when I was planning this I had a good long think about this, the kind of thinking section that many people generally do with a good glass of brandy. I could see how the French would end up fighting Germany again if the cards fell in the right way. But I further saw a way for them to ally with Germany if the cards again fell the right way. But no matter what thought process I used I didn't see a way for Germany and Austria-Hungary to remain allied and for it to remain a nation. With my POD the only way A-H to remain an ally of Germany and united as a single nation would had been ASB so I took the road less traveled.
Jim, do the Brazilians have a side they're leaning towards, or are they once again playing to whatever side they can get the most from joining?
So is it official that Austria-Hungary will not survive this war? Just to jog my memory, why did Germany and Austria-Hungary drift apart after the First World War again?
I have some other questions.
What happened to the ethnic Albanians in the regions of Albania annexed by Greece? Sadly, judging by what happened in Veneto, methinks the Greeks took a page out of their erstwhile ally Austria-Hungary's book.
Why didn't the Americans annex Quebec or the Maritime Provinces? I think Quebec is obvious, but what about the Maritime Provinces?
What are relations like between the Central American nations and the United States of America?
What are the governments of the following nations like and who are their leaders (i.e. heads of state and government)?
Romania
Bulgaria
Greece
Paraguay
Dominican Republic
Bolivia
Haiti
Peru
Colombia
Ecuador
I now these are only minor nations in the grand scheme of things, but I'd still like to know more about them IITL.
As to the former, no commit. As to the latter, it had to do with spheres of influence in the Balkans. Then there was the treatment of Italy at the peace table, as A-H felt the Germans were shielding them, and the Germans were indeed shielding the Italians from the worse abuses that A-H wanted (If A-H gotten everything they wanted out of the Italians, Italy would fought a civil war as it would make Versailles look fair). Plus A-H felt like they were playing second string to Berlin and they didn't like it. Plus thousand of other petty issues that date back to the Seven Weeks War in 1866.
You would be right. Shit like this is sad when its on an industrial scale.
Quebec is simple, they didn't want all those French-Quebecois in their nations. The Maritime Federation is trickier. It honestly could when either way, but with all the land they were annexing in the west, Caribbean, Newfoundland, Greenland/Iceland, and Pacific, it was decided it was easier to spin those areas minus Maine max borders to spin them off as its own nation. Also cheaper. Further the Maritime Federation was never going to be a threat to the US. Even through the Maritime Federation wasn't part of the US they got what they wanted anyways, a naval base at Halifax, great trade deals with both Quebec and the Maritime Federation, and rights to transport troops through their nations. Plus it was a peace offering to the Canadians who didn't want to leave North America.
It depends on the nation some have good relations with Washington, others have piss poor relations. It really depends on the nation in question.
Answers in blue
Brazil is still trying to figure out what is going on, but they hate communist and if the communist are clearly on one side Brazil will be on the other.
With the Second World War just around the corner, I figure I'd post this map.
This is a map of this world in January, 1939, on the eve of the Second World War.
This is a map of this world in January, 1939, on the eve of the Second World War.
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What about Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica?
Interesting. What about the heads of state and the heads of government of the aforementioned nations?
Some more questions;
Why aren't Chihuahua and Baja California states as of 1939?
Why haven't the ex-Canadian territories become states of 1939? Does the fact that these territories are sparsely populated have anything to do with it?
Why did Cuba become a state in 1898 but Puerto Rico didn't become a state until 1937?
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If Italy get back Veneto (and the rest of the irredente land) they will probably give the people that had take the place of the displaced italians just the time of run just with their dress...and i don't exclude things much much worse and the same will probably happen in many other places over the empire
Guatemala is a NATO member and has fairly good relations with the US.
Honduras is an American back Banana Republic.
El Salvador has a luke warm relationship with the US.
Nicaragua is a NATO member with good relations with the US but pushing for help to build a canal there, that they would own.
Costa Rica has luke warm relations with the US.
Chihuahua became a state in 38.
Baja simply doesn't have the population to be a state yet. 20 years in the future it might be a different story. But as of 1939 they don't have the population.
The ex-Canadian territories are on the pathway to statehood. British Colombia is now known Cascadia. Alberta and Saskatchewan were merged into a single territory now known as Lincoln. Manitoba was left alone both in name and territory size. The Yukon and Northwest Territories were merged and created a single territory known as the Northern Territories. Ontario was only fully annexed in the 32 with some land lost to Minnesota. They left the name alone. Newfoundland (The island) was merged together with Greenland, still known as Newfoundland through. The population is reaching statehood or has reached statehood levels. Both Ontario and Lincoln have active statehood bids on going. Manitoba and Cascadia are looking like they are going to be states sometime in the early to mid 1940s. Newfoundland maybe late 40s or early 50s. The Northern Territories? Who knows when they will become states, there has been some talk of merging the Northern Territories into different territories that have better odds of becoming states but its unclear if the idea will take hold or not.
As to why Puerto Rico didn't become a state till 37, economics mostly.
All I will say is this, which ever side wins this coming war the map will be forever changed. Not just in Europe, but the whole world even in ways that would be massive to what happened.
With such a system in place that denies territories representation, and territories that could be indefinitely left in that state, is there a possibility for reform in the future? One allowing for limited representation for the territories in Congress, but to a lesser extent than states; Such as giving them a single senator (I'd give an example for the House, but they'd need to be reorganized to allow this).
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I think you quoted the wrong post, but I will say there will be reform at the federal level reflecting the growth of the US ITL.
A Busy Day Pt 3
Berlin
Stadtschloss
January 23 1939
Chancellor Hugo von Kaspar was currently reading the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum that had been delivered to the Romanian government earlier today. This was the second time he was reading this ultimatum after his Foreign Minister Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck had handed it to him. The terms of this ultimatum were such that is was shocking that the first time Hugo had read this ultimatum that he couldn’t believe the terms the Austro-Hungarians were trying to force on the Romanians. He put down the second piece of paper, “Are the fucking idiots in Vienna trying to start a war?”
“It looks that way Hugo. They have never been able to get their house in order and they are playing the price for that failure now and its either a general European war or a civil war for them now.” Austria Hungary had always been a freaking mess when it came to their domestic politics and its only been getting worse over the past few years. Many in Berlin believed that their Service to the Empire Law which made it illegal to leave Austria-Hungary prior to finishing your active duty and reserve service in the Austro-Hungarian military was finally going to turn the pressure cooker on to full. It was only a matter of time before it blew up in their faces.
That was showing as no one was believing the story that the Austro-Hungarians were trying to push that it was the Romanian government that had killed Archduke Otto. The time frame to figure that out was too short, and reports that had managed to get out prior to Vienna and Budapest taking this line pointed to this being a domestic issue not a foreign country trying to cut the head off the sick man of Europe. Besides no one honestly believed the Romanians were that fucking crazy to try it. Not with everything that was on the line.
“Have you spoke with the Americans to see where they stand on this?” Hugo asked. With Vienna and Budapest being aligned with London, this was going to spark a wider war. Even through Bucharest wasn’t directly tied with Berlin, they were linked together via Constantinople as both Germany and Romania had alliance treaties with the Ottoman Empire. It was a needed nuance with Romania and Bulgaria. But it also allowed the Germans to have a sphere of influence in the Balkans.
“They know that was the risk they took by signing the treaty with us. They aren’t crazy about this spreading, but they are staying enough is enough. They think its time to finally finish the unfinish business left over from the last war and made it clear we have their support to do what is needed.”
At that Hugo lean back in his chair and thought for a moment. He knew the last chance to stop another great war rested with him. But he knew that was a fleeing chance at best. More than likely that ship had already sailed. “Paul inform our allies this is war.”
“Da.”
At that Paul turned about and started walking to his office. Hugo had already informed the military to start mobilizing yesterday and he had about three to four days before the lead started to fly. But he had a trick or two up his sleeve to keep this from becoming a blood bath in the Alps. He picked up a phone that was linked to his intelligence chief. The phone had the best encoding technology the German Empire had to offer. Further to keep the risk of this phone line from being tapped it when only to his intelligence service’s chief office. He had to wait three rings before someone picked up. Hugo knew that voice as the chief of staff of the intelligence chief. He spoke a single sentence, “Launch Operation Barbarossa.” Then he hung up the phone.
Stadtschloss
January 23 1939
Chancellor Hugo von Kaspar was currently reading the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum that had been delivered to the Romanian government earlier today. This was the second time he was reading this ultimatum after his Foreign Minister Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck had handed it to him. The terms of this ultimatum were such that is was shocking that the first time Hugo had read this ultimatum that he couldn’t believe the terms the Austro-Hungarians were trying to force on the Romanians. He put down the second piece of paper, “Are the fucking idiots in Vienna trying to start a war?”
“It looks that way Hugo. They have never been able to get their house in order and they are playing the price for that failure now and its either a general European war or a civil war for them now.” Austria Hungary had always been a freaking mess when it came to their domestic politics and its only been getting worse over the past few years. Many in Berlin believed that their Service to the Empire Law which made it illegal to leave Austria-Hungary prior to finishing your active duty and reserve service in the Austro-Hungarian military was finally going to turn the pressure cooker on to full. It was only a matter of time before it blew up in their faces.
That was showing as no one was believing the story that the Austro-Hungarians were trying to push that it was the Romanian government that had killed Archduke Otto. The time frame to figure that out was too short, and reports that had managed to get out prior to Vienna and Budapest taking this line pointed to this being a domestic issue not a foreign country trying to cut the head off the sick man of Europe. Besides no one honestly believed the Romanians were that fucking crazy to try it. Not with everything that was on the line.
“Have you spoke with the Americans to see where they stand on this?” Hugo asked. With Vienna and Budapest being aligned with London, this was going to spark a wider war. Even through Bucharest wasn’t directly tied with Berlin, they were linked together via Constantinople as both Germany and Romania had alliance treaties with the Ottoman Empire. It was a needed nuance with Romania and Bulgaria. But it also allowed the Germans to have a sphere of influence in the Balkans.
“They know that was the risk they took by signing the treaty with us. They aren’t crazy about this spreading, but they are staying enough is enough. They think its time to finally finish the unfinish business left over from the last war and made it clear we have their support to do what is needed.”
At that Hugo lean back in his chair and thought for a moment. He knew the last chance to stop another great war rested with him. But he knew that was a fleeing chance at best. More than likely that ship had already sailed. “Paul inform our allies this is war.”
“Da.”
At that Paul turned about and started walking to his office. Hugo had already informed the military to start mobilizing yesterday and he had about three to four days before the lead started to fly. But he had a trick or two up his sleeve to keep this from becoming a blood bath in the Alps. He picked up a phone that was linked to his intelligence chief. The phone had the best encoding technology the German Empire had to offer. Further to keep the risk of this phone line from being tapped it when only to his intelligence service’s chief office. He had to wait three rings before someone picked up. Hugo knew that voice as the chief of staff of the intelligence chief. He spoke a single sentence, “Launch Operation Barbarossa.” Then he hung up the phone.
Admiral Halsey
Banned
I'm going to assume nothing like the OTL Barbarossa. Probally a preemptive strike on A-H straight through Bohemia most likely.
You are very right that ITL Barbarossa is nothing like the OTL. But as to what it is, this gif does it best
