A new Al-Andalus in Timbuktu?

In 1591, Al-Mansur, the Sultan of Morocco declared war to the Songhai empire. The songhai army was expecting an invassion coming from the coastline, but Al-Mansur's army crossed the Sahara and arrived to the songhai territory where they weren't expected, taking Timbuktu after a crushing victory.
Leading the victorious army was Yader Pasha. He was born in Cuevas de Almanzora, near Almería in southern Spain, as a "morisco". Most of his 4000 men were also expatriate "moriscos" except some english mercenaries.

Yader's idea was to make Timbuktu become a safe place for those spanish cripto-muslims who was often suffering inquisitorial prosecution in Spain (probably the reason that forced him to leave Spain and get a new life in Marrakech). After some sources, soon after the fall of Timbuktu , Al-Mansur faced a rebellion and Yader retourned to Marrakech in order to help his master. Other sources say that contradicting Al-Mansur's orders, he had been merciful with the defeated and granted their lifes and properties, (probably because the city was more valuable to his goals being the prosperous and wealthy city that it was, the hub between the subsaharian and saharian trade routes) and for that reason he was dismissed. Anyway, his substitute, Mahmud ben Zergun, thinking in another way, pillaged and ravaged the city.

Nowadays, the descendants of those moriscos who stayed in the region are known in Mali as "Arma" people. Also the dogon people have adapted some classical castilian fables to their oral traditions.


And now the alternate history:

What if Yader stays in charge and manages to create a morisco center in Timbuktu?
Could he attract a significant number of the moriscos expeled from Spain in 1609?
How does the African history change?


Cheers.
 
Well, the problem is that Timbuktu is on one side of the Sahara and Morocco is on the other. Africans, both Northern and sub-Saharan, often refer to the Sahara as the "Ocean of Sand", and thinking of it in that way is a good idea. It supports a very low density of population, and crossing it, while certainly possible, requires as much thought and preparation as crossing a small sea. A North African enclave in Timbuktu is going to have to constantly defend itself against native Africans while being resupplied across the Sahara, so it most likely won't last very long.

Besides, refugees from al-Andalus did have a center to settle in without having to go all the way to Timbuktu. Its called Morocco. Even today, a lot of Moroccans (and other North Africans) trace their ancestry across the Straits of Gibralter.
 
It's a cool idea, but as T-guy pointed out, the logistics of such a population move are a bitch.

Q: how many Moriscos are there to potentially emigrate? What about Sepharim, are they invited too?
 
It's a cool idea, but as T-guy pointed out, the logistics of such a population move are a bitch.

Q: how many Moriscos are there to potentially emigrate? What about Sepharim, are they invited too?

Well, several hundred thousand Moriscos were expelled from Spain in the 17th century, with many more having left earlier. I don't know how many sephardic Jews there were.
 
Many thanks for your responses and for the bump.

I'm aware about the logistic problems. In fact, Yader's expedition lost half of the men crossing the desert and the moroccan rule over the region only lasted a few years in OTL, so I asumme the most probable outcome is similar to OTL. But maybe there are some possibilities to make it possible. Some sugestions: Letthem to keep a safe route from the atlantic coast to Timbuktu, but probably that is not easy, nor a much better trip than the saharian option. Another sub-option is using the trade routes through the Niger river, but also there could be hostile african opposiition and, most dangerous, portuguese hostility. The third option in what I can think is the Tuareg cooperating and guiding small groups through the Sahara but we need give them a good reason to cooperate, of course.

Anyway, we don't need a masive wave of immigration in the very first moment but maybe something slightly like the conquistadores in the Americas: A first nucleus composed by a bunch of men who manages to establish a self-sufficient political center over the ruins of the defeated empire, mixing with the native elites if neccesary. I know that the situation is not the same in both cases but perhaps something like that could work.

I wonder if the Ottoman Empire could support a venture like that....

Besides, refugees from al-Andalus did have a center to settle in without having to go all the way to Timbuktu. Its called Morocco.

That's true. But the relations between moriscos and moroccan sultans weren't always good relations. The moriscos had their own political agenda, sometimes confronted to moroccan interests, specially in foreign affairs and that caused some troubles and repression against them. They also participated actively in the power struggles inside the sultanate and not always in the winning side. So, a morisco state ruled by morisco customs could have its appeal, specially if it is prosperous.

What about Sepharim, are they invited too?

It's estimated that in 1492 about 50.000-200.000 sephardics were expelled from Spain. It could be interesting to have some of them in a trade-center like Timbuktu.


Cheers.
 
Hmmm...assuming the Morisco Timbaktu is established, could it become the seed of ATL's "Mali" Empire? Could regular trade (particularly if they take the Senegal river mouth) bring in new ideas from the OE and benefit from the learning/tech advances?
 
There wore Andalusians in Timbuktu before the arrival of the Moroccans.
They did control part of the civil service of the Mali and later of the Songhai empires.
Why not wank them?

A link about the Timbuktu's libraries
http://www.acropolis.org/news/Display_news.aspx?lang=fra&newsID=108

A video about the Andalusian libraries in Timbuktu in Spanish and French with subtitles in Spanish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeGhd8svJjs

A page with several links to one of the Andalusian libraries in Timbuktu, Fondo Kati
http://www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/privates/kati/articles.html

And a blog post about the Spanish muslins of Timbuktu, there's a link that could help with your idea at the end of the post
http://fatalparadox.blogspot.com/2009/06/spanish-muslims-of-timbuktu.html
 
I'd love to see a TL done of this now, perhaps with TTL's Mali/Songhai Empire analog benefiting from sea trade with Europe and the OE...possibly eventually with India or the *Americas.

Hmmm...if I'm ever able to do that Fun with Cryptohistory TL idea this could fulfil the "Malians in Mesoamerica" requirement. I claim stealing rights! ;)
 
There wore Andalusians in Timbuktu before the arrival of the Moroccans.
They did control part of the civil service of the Mali and later of the Songhai empires.
Why not wank them?

A link about the Timbuktu's libraries
http://www.acropolis.org/news/Display_news.aspx?lang=fra&newsID=108

A video about the Andalusian libraries in Timbuktu in Spanish and French with subtitles in Spanish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeGhd8svJjs

A page with several links to one of the Andalusian libraries in Timbuktu, Fondo Kati
http://www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/privates/kati/articles.html

And a blog post about the Spanish muslins of Timbuktu, there's a link that could help with your idea at the end of the post
http://fatalparadox.blogspot.com/2009/06/spanish-muslims-of-timbuktu.html


Thanks for the interesting links. I knew that an architect from Granada made the great mosque of Timbuktu, but I did'nt know that there were well established spanish muslims before Yuder's expedition.

I'd love to see a TL done of this now, perhaps with TTL's Mali/Songhai Empire analog benefiting from sea trade with Europe and the OE...possibly eventually with India or the *Americas.

Hmmm...if I'm ever able to do that Fun with Cryptohistory TL idea this could fulfil the "Malians in Mesoamerica" requirement. I claim stealing rights! ;)

I would like to write a timeline about the subjet but, as you can see, my english skills are not the better to make a decent one. Of course, I encourage you to steal the rights ;)

Cheers
 
I would like to write a timeline about the subjet but, as you can see, my english skills are not the better to make a decent one. Of course, I encourage you to steal the rights ;)

Cheers

Frankly, your English is better than a lot of my fellow American posters', but I digress... ;)

I'll take this idea for Fun with Cryptohistory [1] if I ever get to it, but I'm full-up with existing TLs at the moment.



1- FYI Fun with Cryptohistory was to be a fun and plausible (if not probable) attempt to bring all those bullshit "cryptohistory" theories together into an ATL. Basically plausible excuses to see Chinese California, Vikings in the Great Lakes (and Washington State!! At least one website claims "Vinland" to be at Seattle! :eek: I wish I were kidding), Muslim Texas, and Malians in Mesoamerica. You all gave me an idea for the last one with this WI.
 
I'd love to see a TL done of this now, perhaps with TTL's Mali/Songhai Empire analog benefiting from sea trade with Europe and the OE...possibly eventually with India or the *Americas.

Hmmm...if I'm ever able to do that Fun with Cryptohistory TL idea this could fulfil the "Malians in Mesoamerica" requirement. I claim stealing rights! ;)

I once thought of the idea. Historico took the idea and ran with it. All I can say is that the idea is quite interesting.

Indeed, I wonder if either Mali or Songhay had the chance to become the Muslim equivalent of Abyssinia- a nation with a monotheistic sect respected in the Old World and thus seen as a kindred civilization by certain nations. This puts them at a better place to avoid being conquered outright and subjugated like any other common colony.
 
I once thought of the idea. Historico took the idea and ran with it. All I can say is that the idea is quite interesting.

Damn...beat me too it. :p Still, mine would be, like, different, and stuff.

Indeed, I wonder if either Mali or Songhay had the chance to become the Muslim equivalent of Abyssinia- a nation with a monotheistic sect respected in the Old World and thus seen as a kindred civilization by certain nations. This puts them at a better place to avoid being conquered outright and subjugated like any other common colony.

I'd be really curious to see what could happen if Mali/Songhai/analog could serve to keep Sahel Africa linked into the greater Mideast-Euro communications sphere, with all the technological and scientific benefits therein. Sure, it'd be a marginal nation, but could greatly benefit from Indian-European sea trade when th cape gets rounded.
 
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