A Nazi rise after a German WWI victory

CaliGuy

Banned
According to Tooze Ludendorff had German and Finnish forces ready for just that in Summer 1918, but the politicians didn't want to break with the Bolsheviks until victory on the western front made it safe to do so. But nobody in Berlin wanted the Bolsheviks in power permanently. They were viewed as a bunch of murderous savages - as indeed they were. As soon as Ludendorff's hands were free it would be game over for them.




The Germans were within striking distance of Petrograd and Moscow in a way the Entente never were. And as David T notes, lf a handful of Czechs could take over the whole of Siberia, it's hardly likely the German Army would have any problems. After all, even OTL Kolchak was able to penetrate European Russia as far as Kazan, so once the Germans are in Moscow the Bolsheviks don't have many places left to retreat to.
What about if the Bolsheviks merely retreat as far back as they can? Would Germany be able to occupy all of Russia up to the Pacific Ocean?
 
What about if the Bolsheviks merely retreat as far back as they can? Would Germany be able to occupy all of Russia up to the Pacific Ocean?

Would they have to? Even OTL, Admiral Kolchak's White Army got into European Russia as far as Kazan, so once the Germans are in Moscow (the Bolsheviks had little with which to stop them) the Reds have little space left in which to retreat.

Incidentally, iirc the Czech Legion was only about 50,000 men, yet that was enough to take over the whole of Siberia; so it doesn't sound as if Asiatic Russia would be that much of a problem. The Japanese might be, but iirc Siberia wasn't a high priority for them, and they might have pulled out in return for an agreement that they could keep Tsingtao
 
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Deleted member 94680

Would they have to? Even OTL, Admiral Kolchak's White Army got into European Russia as far as Kazan, so once the Germans are in Moscow (the Bolsheviks had little with which to stop them) the Reds have little space left in which to retreat.

Incidentally, iirc the Czech Legion was only about 50,000 men, yet that was enough to take over the whole of Siberia; so it doesn't sound as if Asiatic Russia would be that much of a problem. The Japanese might be, but iirc Siberia wasn't a high priority for them, and they might have pulled out in return for an agreement that they could keep Tsingtao

Why would Japan be a problem? The anti-Bolshevik campaigns, such as they were, were designed to remove the Soviets and return the monarchy or a democracy, not conquest. The Germans and the Japanese would be working in unison, not against each other.

Some form of partition is a possibility, or more reasonably a return of a puppet Monarchy once the Reds have been cleared out. Conquest of Russia is bordering on ASB, wargaming 'conquer all the squares' nonsense, it wouldn't have been Germany's aim.
 
Why would Japan be a problem? The anti-Bolshevik campaigns, such as they were, were designed to remove the Soviets and return the monarchy or a democracy, not conquest. The Germans and the Japanese would be working in unison, not against each other.

I had in mind that in 1918 Japan is still at war with Germany. They may well make peace once Germany has won in Europe, but that might take a while.

Some form of partition is a possibility, or more reasonably a return of a puppet Monarchy once the Reds have been cleared out. Conquest of Russia is bordering on ASB, wargaming 'conquer all the squares' nonsense, it wouldn't have been Germany's aim.

I agree it is unlikely in practice. Their aim would be to run Russia through a puppet White government, though again that could take time to arrange, given the Whites' hostility to the Brest-Litovsk treaty. My point related more to the Bolsheviks' military weakness than to what Germany would actually want to do.
 

Deleted member 94680

I had in mind that in 1918 Japan is still at war with Germany. They may well make peace once Germany has won in Europe, but that might take a while.

That is an excellent point that I had completely failed to consider. As you say, Germany victorious in Europe would probably mean Japan make peace. I'm not sure Tsingtao would be on the table, but there are plenty of other European bases and colonies they could have if they swapped sides. Japanese Hong Kong or Singapore maybe?

I agree it is unlikely in practice. Their aim would be to run Russia through a puppet White government, though again that could take time to arrange, given the Whites' hostility to the Brest-Litovsk treaty. My point related more to the Bolsheviks' military weakness than to what Germany would actually want to do.

Fair point. I'm not even sure how puppet the Russians would be. I've always imagined it would be the Romanovs restored, with a "treaty of friendship" or some such? Russians would understand the concept, they bailed out Austria in 1848 after all.
 
I agree with what others have said that it is highly unlikely the Nazis could arise in a victorious Germany.

A Communist France is more likely, but unless France keeps her empire through both the alternate peace settlement and the revolution, it is unlikely that France alone could launch a war like what the Nazis did.

But a France allied with Russia...
 

longsword14

Banned
I agree with what others have said that it is highly unlikely the Nazis could arise in a victorious Germany.

A Communist France is more likely, but unless France keeps her empire through both the alternate peace settlement and the revolution, it is unlikely that France alone could launch a war like what the Nazis did.

But a France allied with Russia...
And France would have a stable communist revolution because? Another republic is more likely, and the Germans will not allow communists to stand either in the east or the west.
 
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