A Nazi rise after a German WWI victory

It's unlikely, but is it possible?

You have a number of possible helping factors

  • The war could be incredibly devastating for Germany and/or lead to the collapse of allies
  • The Wall Street Crash is still coming
  • The Nazis could act as counter-revolutionaries against communists
  • Some sort of victory that is "snatched away" by domestic trouble maybe even up to a few years later
 
AFAIK Hitler only joined the Nazis because the military thought they were a potential threat and sent Hitler to spy on them. Unlikely in a victory. Plus the military would still be in a shape that the Conservative Elites would not feel threatened enough that the Nazis seem necessary as a Bulwark against communism
 

Riain

Banned
The Kaiser promised to reform Prussian 3 class suffrage in his easter 1917 message which will go a long way to diffusing popular political discontent in victotious post WW1 Germany. I doubt that the particular brand of discontent that gave rise to the Nazis would arise as a result. Others probably would but possibly not take government in the same way, the stronger state wouldn't allow the political violence and intimidation that the Nazis did for starters.
 
You know what would be an interesting twist? After a German victory, fascism arises based on right-wing freikorps militias returning home after fighting vicious wars on behalf of the Reich and the Volk in the Baltic, Poland, and a collapsing Austria-Hungary.
 
You know what would be an interesting twist? After a German victory, fascism arises based on right-wing freikorps militias returning home after fighting vicious wars on behalf of the Reich and the Volk in the Baltic, Poland, and a collapsing Austria-Hungary.

That sounds at least somewhat plausible, considering the role played by Baltic German aristocracy in OTL's Nazism.
 
Nazis used pretty much humiliating Versailles treaty as reason for problems. When there wouldn't be humiliating peace Nazis would be very difficult to blame anyone. No creation of backstabbing myth, not rising antisemitism, not occupation of Rheinland ans etc. More probably is some authotarian semi-militarist government what Germany actually was on last years of the war.
 
What does victory in Germany mean? In OTL German territory was in German hands at war's end. German occupation of France is not possible, especially once the USA is at play.

Thus, I suggest a Germany victory is defined as an armistice that is more equitable. However, without German humiliation I'm not sure you get the Nazis.
 

Riain

Banned
What does victory in Germany mean? In OTL German territory was in German hands at war's end. German occupation of France is not possible, especially once the USA is at play.

Thus, I suggest a Germany victory is defined as an armistice that is more equitable. However, without German humiliation I'm not sure you get the Nazis.

German victory is exactly what it says it is, the Entente being defeated in battle and asking for an Armistice as all hope of victory on their part is lost, much like the situation in the east in 1917-18. Germany would certainly occupy significant portions of France but perhaps not Paris for some time while a Treaty was hammered out, again much like he situation in the east. Presumably the course of the war is somewhat different to bring about a CP victory, as OTL's course brings OTL's result.
 
With a German victory in World War One, there would be no Freikorps. There would also be no stab in the back legend as there was no humiliating defeat. There would be no occupations of what is considered German territory, and would have no Versailles Treaty to abrogate. I highly doubt there would even be the groundswell for the DAP to form, let alone the NSDAP. There is also the highly likely outcome where A-H will fold, and under a German dominated Central Europe, its likely that the Germans could annex all the choice pieces of territory with Germans in them, and create a racially divided Eastern Europe under their control, so there is no reason for people to follow a movement based on restoring Germany to greatness, as winning World War One would have created said greatness.

Just my two cents
 

Deleted member 97083

It's unlikely, but is it possible?

You have a number of possible helping factors

  • The war could be incredibly devastating for Germany and/or lead to the collapse of allies
  • The Wall Street Crash is still coming
  • The Nazis could act as counter-revolutionaries against communists
  • Some sort of victory that is "snatched away" by domestic trouble maybe even up to a few years later
It's not impossible. The German Empire used forced labor in Poland and Belgum, and if the Baltic Germans get any political power whatsoever they'll spread their proto-Nazi and neo-feudalist view of the East. The militarist Junkers already had political power and rural German peasants were very reactionary.

Communism will also be most significant threat to the German Empire's puppet states, so imperial rhetoric will be violently anti-communist.

All in all, some sort of pseudo-fascism in the German Empire, turning into actual fascism, is far from impossible.

With a German victory in World War One, there would be no Freikorps. There would also be no stab in the back legend as there was no humiliating defeat. There would be no occupations of what is considered German territory, and would have no Versailles Treaty to abrogate. I highly doubt there would even be the groundswell for the DAP to form, let alone the NSDAP. There is also the highly likely outcome where A-H will fold, and under a German dominated Central Europe, its likely that the Germans could annex all the choice pieces of territory with Germans in them, and create a racially divided Eastern Europe under their control, so there is no reason for people to follow a movement based on restoring Germany to greatness, as winning World War One would have created said greatness.

Just my two cents
However that's assuming no Great Depression happens. If it happens, it will disrupt the status quo and likely lead to communist revolutions in the puppet states or in the Empire itself.
 
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If Germany won the First World War, you'd be more likely to see a fascist regime rise to power in France.

But it would lack the ability to go on a revanchist conquering spree, it wouldn't have the population, the industry, a military tradition comparable to that of Prussia, and I would argue it also lacks the resolution (two wars against Germany lost already).
 

Riain

Banned
It's not impossible. The German Empire used forced labor in Poland and Belgum, and if the Baltic Germans get any political power whatsoever they'll spread their proto-Nazi and neo-feudalist view of the East. The militarist Junkers already had political power and rural German peasants were very reactionary.

I think the whole proto-nazi in WW1 thing is seriously overblown. The military dictatorship was not balls deep, the Kaiser, Chancellor, Bundesraat and Reichstag were marginalised but not removed and the powers Hindy and Ludy took on were legal under the 1851 Prussian Siege law. It would be hard for them to maintain this power once the war was over. Similarly the Junkers time was coming to an end with the promise to reform the Prussian 3 class suffrage system, BH convinced the Kaiser that 20 years olds who had fought in the war could not be denied an equal vote.
 
It's not impossible. The German Empire used forced labor in Poland and Belgum, and if the Baltic Germans get any political power whatsoever they'll spread their proto-Nazi and neo-feudalist view of the East. The militarist Junkers already had political power and rural German peasants were very reactionary.

Communism will also be most significant threat to the German Empire's puppet states, so imperial rhetoric will be violently anti-communist.

All in all, some sort of pseudo-fascism in the German Empire, turning into actual fascism, is far from impossible.

However that's assuming no Great Depression happens. If it happens, it will disrupt the status quo and likely lead to communist revolutions in the puppet states or in the Empire itself.


A depression might happen in the early 1920s or in 1919 with France and Britain defaulting on their American bank loans.
 

Deleted member 97083

I think the whole proto-nazi in WW1 thing is seriously overblown. The military dictatorship was not balls deep, the Kaiser, Chancellor, Bundesraat and Reichstag were marginalised but not removed and the powers Hindy and Ludy took on were legal under the 1851 Prussian Siege law. It would be hard for them to maintain this power once the war was over. Similarly the Junkers time was coming to an end with the promise to reform the Prussian 3 class suffrage system, BH convinced the Kaiser that 20 years olds who had fought in the war could not be denied an equal vote.
When I said proto-Nazi, I was referring to the Baltic Germans, not the German Empire as it existed. The ATL German Empire though, could easily become proto-Nazi through escalating anticommunism and from Baltic German aristocrats rising up the ranks.

The Junkers time would come to an end much like the Southern aristocracy in the antebellum South came to an end--legally but not in economic reality, with the main plantation structure persisting for decades into "free" society. Unless Germany goes communist, the wealthy Junkers will still spread their political agenda.
 
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Italy was on the winning side for WW1 and it turned fascist as a reaction to not becoming socialist or communist.

German could be fascist as a reaction to not being communist after a win orca draw in ww1 similar to Italy.

This is not a Nazi germany, but will be facist.

There will be a cry to unite all German speaking people under one reign.

Anti-Semitism increases, but there are no concentration camps.

Austria-Hungary collapses, so Germany will want to absorb the German speaking portions including the annexation of Austria.

What if the only territory that Germany gives up in the peace with France is Alscace-Lorraine and empire colonies. No war indeminities and the blockade ends. That is it. Army and navy size is not restricted or weapon types. Rhineland is same, not demilitarized.

Might still have ww2, but not the same as Germany is focussed on uniting all germans. Communist ussr is still enemy #1 as well.

This Germany may actually have a conflict with Italy over South Tyrol. A conflict with France on A-L again.

Want to absorb Lux,

There might not be a munich agreement as Germany simply walks in and absorbs Czech when Austria-Hungary breaks up.
 
And of course there will be no disarmament of Germany, so its army will still be massive, and unlikely to tolerate any competitors such as the SA. So you won't get paramilitaries (left-wing or right) on German streets.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
You know what would be an interesting twist? After a German victory, fascism arises based on right-wing freikorps militias returning home after fighting vicious wars on behalf of the Reich and the Volk in the Baltic, Poland, and a collapsing Austria-Hungary.
That might actually be realistic in the sense that hyper-nationalistic German military men might gradually reach higher and higher positions in the German military after a German WWI victory; after all, the hyper-nationalistic fervor that might very well emerge among German right-wingers after a German WWI victory could certainly help fuel this.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
And of course there will be no disarmament of Germany, so its army will still be massive, and unlikely to tolerate any competitors such as the SA. So you won't get paramilitaries (left-wing or right) on German streets.
You won't get paramilitaries; however, you might have hyper-nationalism become popular among German right-wingers in a German WWI victory scenario.
 
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