A natural Panama Canal

nyudnik

Banned
Until the Panama Canal, east-west sailing was massively stymied. WI there had always been a natural canal connecting the Atlantic and Pacific? Polynesians and Chinese on the East Coast of the USA? A Spanish Australia? A British Ecuador?
 
If I understand correctly the forming of the Panama isthmus was what triggered the beginning of the Pleistocene Ice Ages due to the shift in ocean currents.

Which may mean that humanity remained stuck in the Homo erectus-fase.

In any case South American fauna would be greatly different.
 
The Incas find out what the Spanish are up to in Mexica and the war starts earlier. Spain never gets more than a foothold in the American mainland. The only Europeans in the Americas are in the Caribbean islands and Newfoundland.
 
A massive, and unique earthquake hits Panama sometime in the 12th Century. The Isthmus drops under sea level, and a passage between the continents is born. It is discovered in 16th Century, and it becomes a bone of contention between the Spanish, the Portugese, the English, and the Netherlanders.
 
Perhaps we can tweak the geography or something so that there's a river that cuts from the Caribbean to the Pacific or (more likely) a series of interconnected rivers.
 
Here's a map.

pncanal.gif
 
Count Deerborn said:
It is discovered in 16th Century, and it becomes a bone of contention between the Spanish, the Portugese, the English, and the Netherlanders.


That's the important bit here.

The talk of fauna is all well and good, but S. America had been separated from N. America many times before and the fauna exchange from the last link up is still going on today. (Mostly in N. America's favor for a variety of reasons, the possum is one of S. America's few successes)

A natural canal would be a strategic prize of the first magnitude. It's existence, and the desire to use and control it, will drive European colonization efforts down a completely different path. The region of the natural canal, plus its Caribbean and Pacific approaches, will be hotly contested by all the powers.

Exploration in other areas will suffer accordingly. There will still be efforts to find a Northwest Passage for instance, but they won't be a many or as frequent as in OTL. The Atlantic coast of N. America won't be explored as fully as early as it was in the OTL. Hudson won't sail up the Hudson or on his bay. The St. Lawrence will be mapped later and the Great Lakes found later still.

Circumnavigation will occur earlier. There will be no need for Magellan or, more likley, someone even earlier to chart his Straits as a way of reaching the Pacific without braving the Roaring Forties and the Horn.

European contact with and destruction of the Aztec and Incan civilizations will come sooner too as explorers use the canal and then explore the coasts to the north and south.

I don't think a natural canal will mean a Spanish Australia or New Zealand. The Pacific is very wide and you can get to Oz and NZ more 'easily'; i.e. more places to resupply, via the eastern route. The Polynesian cultures of the Pacific will be contacted earlier however.

Does anyone have any ideas about how would a natural canal effect the conduct of the Spanish treasure fleets?


Bill
 
Bill Cameron said:
Exploration in other areas will suffer accordingly. There will still be efforts to find a Northwest Passage for instance, but they won't be a many or as frequent as in OTL. The Atlantic coast of N. America won't be explored as fully as early as it was in the OTL. Hudson won't sail up the Hudson or on his bay. The St. Lawrence will be mapped later and the Great Lakes found later still.

Circumnavigation will occur earlier. There will be no need for Magellan or, more likley, someone even earlier to chart his Straits as a way of reaching the Pacific without braving the Roaring Forties and the Horn.

Depends. If, say, Spain seizes it early on and holds it, Every one else will still have the urge to find a way around the American continent.

Bill Cameron said:
European contact with and destruction of the Aztec and Incan civilizations will come sooner too as explorers use the canal and then explore the coasts to the north and south.

Incas yes. Aztecs, why? They border the Caribbean after all.

Bill Cameron said:
The Polynesian cultures of the Pacific will be contacted earlier however.

Why? The're still well to the south of the route between Central America and East Asia (which is more or less the same as the Acapulco-Philippines run)

Bill Cameron said:
Does anyone have any ideas about how would a natural canal effect the conduct of the Spanish treasure fleets?

It would eliminate the need for an overland portage of the Isthmus of Panama for the Peruvian part of it. Buccaneers like Henry Morgan would not have to climb over the isthmus and try to capture new ships to get at Spain's Pacific ports.
 
JHPier said:
Depends. If, say, Spain seizes it early on and holds it, Every one else will still have the urge to find a way around the American continent.

True. They could either devote resources to towards exploration or they could devote resources towards seizing and/or using a known route from Spain. It's the old 'bird in the hand' quandary. I'd think the other powers would drawn towards the seizing/sneaking method. It is what the Dutch did to the Portuguese along the Cape route after all.

BTW, how wide does everyone see this 'canal' to be? I'm thinking more of a 'strait'; Gib, Molucca, etc., then a 'canal'; Suez, etc. I presumed at least a ~10km width, it is natural after all.

Incas yes. Aztecs, why? They border the Caribbean after all.

Aztec lands proper bordered neither the Caribbean or Pacific. However the lands of their subjugated peoples did.

With a Panama canal/straits found soon after Columbus' arrival (it was what he was looking for after all) I'm presuming more Spanish shipping nosing around the coasts of Central America. In the OTL, after 'bumping into' Central America and satisfying themselves that no strait existed, the Spanish backed up and began expending their efforts towards settling the Caribbean. With a strait at Panama, Spanish attention would be drawn more towards either coast of the mainland much sooner. The Caribbean islands would not recieve the same amount of attention.

Why? The're still well to the south of the route between Central America and East Asia (which is more or less the same as the Acapulco-Philippines run)

More more trans-Pacific traffic much earlier. First, a Panama strait/canal would lead to a earlier circumnavigation. They were looking for a route to the Indies and it was soon apparent that the Americas weren't Indies. Passing through a Panama strait, bypassing the Americas, and pressing on westward would have happened almost immediately.

Second, sailing on the Pacific would now not depend on either crossing Panama on foot and building ships, fiding your way around the Horn, or getting there the 'long' way via Africa and the Indian Ocean.

So, the Europeans could get to the Pacfic earlier/sooner and they had reasons to sail the Pacific earlier/sooner. More ships earlier means more chances earlier to contact a Polynesian island.

It would eliminate the need for an overland portage of the Isthmus of Panama for the Peruvian part of it. Buccaneers like Henry Morgan would not have to climb over the isthmus and try to capture new ships to get at Spain's Pacific ports.

IIRC, the treasure was stored for a period of time in Panama. The Pacific fleet would arrive from the Phillipines, unload, and return home with European goods. The treasure was shipped across the ithmus and held for a time. Once sailing conditions were right, the Caribbean/Atlantic fleet would arrive, drop off European goods, load the treasure, and head for Spain.

The treasure being ashore in a known place for a certain period of time must have driven both the buccaneers and Spanish crazy.

An Panama strait means that the treasure's journey needn't be broken up. The ships can sail all the way, only stopping for resupply.


Bill
 
Interestingly, I'm reading Clive Cussler's Trojan Odyssey right now. The main villian, along with the Red Chinese, is carving out a huge series of tunnels through Nicaragua to divert the South Equatorial Current that flows from Africa into the Caribbean Sea. This has the effect of lowering the temperature of the Gulf Stream by 8 degrees after it intersects with the Labrador Current.

While the socio-economic implications of a natural Panama Canal are easy to postulate what about the environmental, which will have a greater impact?
 
well if you'll notice as you go down the canal you'll head through a series of gates, the water will flood in one gate to raise you a certain amount of footage. this is continued until youre to the other side.
 
cow defender said:
well if you'll notice as you go down the canal you'll head through a series of gates, the water will flood in one gate to raise you a certain amount of footage. this is continued until youre to the other side.

In a naturally occuring Panama Canal there wouldn't be any series of gates, or more properly locks. The canal will be at sea level.
 

gaijin

Banned
it becomes a bone of contention between the Spanish, the Portugese, the English, and the Netherlanders.

Couldn't resist this beauty. People from the Netherlands are called Dutch, not Netherlanders. The only one I have ever heard use something similar was Bush (he used Netherlandish). These Americaners really speak weird English :D
 
BurningWickerman said:
Are you sure? Wouldnt their be a massive flood going round the cape of good hope if that was the case?


Quite right. The height difference is more like 20cm.
 
cow defender said:
well if you'll notice as you go down the canal you'll head through a series of gates, the water will flood in one gate to raise you a certain amount of footage. this is continued until youre to the other side.

But presumably the water level in the canal first rises as you leave one ocean, then falls again to get down to the other. Effectively, ships go 'uphill' to reach the centre, then 'downhill' to the other side.

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David S Poepoe said:
Interestingly, I'm reading Clive Cussler's Trojan Odyssey right now. The main villian, along with the Red Chinese, is carving out a huge series of tunnels through Nicaragua to divert the South Equatorial Current that flows from Africa into the Caribbean Sea. This has the effect of lowering the temperature of the Gulf Stream by 8 degrees after it intersects with the Labrador Current.

While the socio-economic implications of a natural Panama Canal are easy to postulate what about the environmental, which will have a greater impact?

That was the first thought to occur to me. The Gulf Stream is vital to the climate of NW Europe in general (and the UK in particular!). Breaching the Isthmus of Panama with a wide natural strait would probably prevent the GS from flowing, shifting the UK's climate down to something like Newfoundland's. Not nice, and pretty devastating economically, to agriculture etc. I suspect that us Brits would be too busy keeping warm to worry about global domination :)

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