A Native-fanboying HNNNGGNHHNHGGGG-tastic curiosity

Mississippi Rice+Bronze Age New World, would look more like MR*BANW or maybe even MR^BANW.

In terms of development prior to contact with euros.

Now I think this one issue should be given a special attention. Say that the *Arawaks managed to develop the advanced navigation technics as per BANW(when was that in that TL ? 100 AD or 500AD ? I don't remember.... :eek:), what comes next ? With all the contacts with Southern Megalopotamians, Mayans and Western Mesoamericans, AND also with the peoples of Venezuela, Colombia, and Guyanas, and even up to Amazonia, and inter-exchange of ideas and technologies between them, through mainly by *Arawakan intermediaries. The Mayans with their navigational technology seems quite promising, though in context of the *Arawakan presence, certainly. There is also this possibility of the *Arawakans setting up Normandy-like states in both Mesoamerica and Megalopotamia.....

Also, I'm especially curious about whether there will be even more relatively civilized nations springing up especially due to the influence of *Arawakan network, in places like Florida, Central America east of Maya, or on along the coast of *Gulf of Mexico, just north of the lands of the Nahuans(which IIRC was inhabited by agricultural people), by the natives of the respective mentioned regions, though, not by *Arawakan and/or Mayan colonizers.....

I agree that losses from the new diseases would be very high, in all probability, close to a half, and, maybe, much more than a half of pre-contact population.
On the other hand, Jared in his LoRaG presumes that Eurasian and Aururian ground wouldn't be as virgin as American ground in OTL: suffering from their own plagues, the Eurasians/Aururians had built up non-specific immunity, allowing them to survive even previously unknown epidemics better than it was the case in the Americas, where native population was almost entirely without 'plague experience' (well, with possible exception of syphilis).
With more developed New World and Australia, it could mean that there'd be no completely virgin ground anywhere in the world: all civilizations would be able to survive transcontinental plagues with losses less than in the OTL Americas, while all of them would have their own germs, obstructing colonization attempts.
On balance, I'd say that proposed AH-world would see technological (and, probably, social) development slowed down, as well as very little of European settler colonies, with non-European states surviving almost everywhere in the world.

Though I'd say that at least in the New World the Europeans would at least be successful in the Atlantic side of North America,South America south of Amazon, and at minimal a portion of Caribbean archipelago.
 
Now I think this one issue should be given a special attention. Say that the *Arawaks managed to develop the advanced navigation technics as per BANW(when was that in that TL ? 100 AD or 500AD ? I don't remember.... :eek:), what comes next ? With all the contacts with Southern Megalopotamians, Mayans and Western Mesoamericans, AND also with the peoples of Venezuela, Colombia, and Guyanas, and even up to Amazonia, and inter-exchange of ideas and technologies between them, through mainly by *Arawakan intermediaries. The Mayans with their navigational technology seems quite promising, though in context of the *Arawakan presence, certainly. There is also this possibility of the *Arawakans setting up Normandy-like states in both Mesoamerica and Megalopotamia.....

Also, I'm especially curious about whether there will be even more relatively civilized nations springing up especially due to the influence of *Arawakan network, in places like Florida, Central America east of Maya, or on along the coast of *Gulf of Mexico, just north of the lands of the Nahuans(which IIRC was inhabited by agricultural people), by the natives of the respective mentioned regions, though, not by *Arawakan and/or Mayan colonizers.....
.

Part of the problem is just the Butterflies. I don't recall what the POD for BANW was but Mississippi Rice goes back to 2500 BC. But being liberal about that it seems between 100 and 500 AD is when the Arawakan and the Mississippian societies would really start meeting up the Mississippian agricultural package would spread as well. It would only have effects where the wild rice would grow easily around the Arawak trading zone.

In a BANW the Spanish first came about the huge stone ruins of the Arawak on Cuba. Combining both TLs means the Arawak might survive better on Cuba itself thanks to the wild rice.
 
Though I'd say that at least in the New World the Europeans would at least be successful in the Atlantic side of North America,South America south of Amazon, and at minimal a portion of Caribbean archipelago.
The Atlantic side of North America in the 'Mississippian Rice' TL is relatively densely populated by the Native *Americans. Even with all alien plagues hitting them (and especially taking into account *American and Aururian plagues hitting Europeans), I doubt that the Whites would be able to do more than reach the Appalachians, and even there would be the independent *Indian tribes surviving among the European settlements.. However, the Europeans could be much more successful in OTL Canada, settling it all the way to the Pacific, but it'd need railways, as in OTL.
I agree that Caribbean islands (depopulated even before European discovery, according to the BANW TL) could be relatively easily settled (more by African slaves than by the Europeans - as in OTL). However, with enormous losses among the slaves, and, more importantly, in Africa itself (due to the *American and Aururian plagues) continued purchases of the Africans could become unviable (especially with their price going up, and prices of colonial goods going down, because of shrinking European markets). It doesn't mean, of course, that the Antilles would remain empty till ATL 2009. They would be populated, but there is a possibility that they would be repopulated by the *Americans, rather than settled by the Europeans/Africans. There is potential for development of syncretic, *American-African-European culture in the West Indies.
As for countries south of the Amazon Basin - yes, I assume that their colonization would be relatively successful, with weak Native resistance and pleasant climate. Depopulation of Europe would slow down the colonization, of course, but, in all probability, wouldn't be strong enough to prevent it from happening.
 
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The Atlantic side of North America in the 'Mississippian Rice' TL is relatively densely populated by the Native *Americans. Even with all alien plagues hitting them (and especially taking into account *American and Aururian plagues hitting Europeans), I doubt that the Whites would be able to do more than reach the Appalachians, and even there would be the independent *Indian tribes surviving among the European settlements.. However, the Europeans could be much more successful in OTL Canada, settling it all the way to the Pacific, but it'd need railways, as in in OTL.

I meant to say Atlantic coastals of North America, because MR's Megalopotamian civilizations didn't spread pass through the Appalachians, yes.

However, let's say that we discounting the *Aururian plagues, will the European population there be much more dense. (Remember, that I say this thread isn't to only focus on just a combination of all three scenarios, but also with just two of them, or even with throwing in another pet, just like Geekhis Khan did ;) )
 
Part of the problem is just the Butterflies. I don't recall what the POD for BANW was but Mississippi Rice goes back to 2500 BC. But being liberal about that it seems between 100 and 500 AD is when the Arawakan and the Mississippian societies would really start meeting up the Mississippian agricultural package would spread as well. It would only have effects where the wild rice would grow easily around the Arawak trading zone.

In a BANW the Spanish first came about the huge stone ruins of the Arawak on Cuba. Combining both TLs means the Arawak might survive better on Cuba itself thanks to the wild rice.

It's exactly because of the butterflies, hence my question. In terms of how the *Americans' technological advancement would develop due this butterflies, I'm quite sure that it'd be mostly positive.

I would think that there will be more than the wild rice for the *Arawaks. It'll actually be the comodities AND market providable by Megalopotamians in general. In turn, through the *Arawak trade network, and possibly even the adoption of *Arawak navigational technics by either Mesoamericans, Megalopotamians, or both(and that's perfectly possible to happen. Probable even), Mesoamerican influence can spread more quickly to Megalopotamia, and also vice versa. Ultimately, more rabid circulation of technologies, commodities, and ideas between Mesoamericans, Megalopotamians and *Arawakans, beside some more other parties, will going to make generally more accelerated rate of advancement between the parties involved, especially the big 3.

In conclusion, 1) butterflies will start flapping their wings when the first encounter between the *Arawaks and Megalopotamians happen, and 2) Megalopotamian, *Arawak, and Mesoamerican civilizations(and, inevitably actually, also some extra parties from within *Arawaks' reach) will be all quite different in appearance, maybe even very for the *Arawaks, from their respective original selves in their original TLs, certainly as more advanced ones in that regard.
 
It's exactly because of the butterflies, hence my question. In terms of how the *Americans' technological advancement would develop due this butterflies, I'm quite sure that it'd be mostly positive.

I would think that there will be more than the wild rice for the *Arawaks. It'll actually be the comodities AND market providable by Megalopotamians in general. In turn, through the *Arawak trade network, and possibly even the adoption of *Arawak navigational technics by either Mesoamericans, Megalopotamians, or both(and that's perfectly possible to happen. Probable even), Mesoamerican influence can spread more quickly to Megalopotamia, and also vice versa. Ultimately, more rabid circulation of technologies, commodities, and ideas between Mesoamericans, Megalopotamians and *Arawakans, beside some more other parties, will going to make generally more accelerated rate of advancement between the parties involved, especially the big 3.

In conclusion, 1) butterflies will start flapping their wings when the first encounter between the *Arawaks and Megalopotamians happen, and 2) Megalopotamian, *Arawak, and Mesoamerican civilizations(and, inevitably actually, also some extra parties from within *Arawaks' reach) will be all quite different in appearance, maybe even very for the *Arawaks, from their respective original selves in their original TLs, certainly as more advanced ones in that regard.

Now the most interesting part to discuss is about.... which one can/will get which one from which one ? *Arawaks' naval technics adopted by Mesoamericans and Megalopotamians ? The spreading of Mesoamerican maize and Megalopotamian wild rice to each other(the former won't be so meaningful in broad sense, but I'm still quite curious on the details it can make) besides to the other places as well ? Mayan knowledges on Mathematics and Astronomy to the *Arawaks and even the upper Megalopotamians ?

Anything else ?
 
The big difference might be the Arawaks might have a reason to go up the Atlantic Seaboard. It seemed like in BANW the Arawaks were mostly raiders, but with larger populations they might need to set up settler colonies.

The transmission of the potato might be an addition to the upper Megalopotamians. This would be likely because not only is there an advanced sea trading/raiding/settling group but also a greater reason to contact that far north. To put a date on this I think 400 A.D. at the peak of Arawak civilization and the founding of the first upper Megalopotamian dynasties.

The mayans were bigger expanders in Mississippi Rice but in BANW they were considered minor peoples. This is based on the super organzied Tlon, which I think would be butterflied out of existence. There would probably be a larger more substantial Arawak empire so that the Tlon can't organize their super state.

Also the Mound builders in OTL had astronomy as well without Mayan influence. At least it would seem so because of the placement and precision of some of the Mound sights. Which as Native-fanboy I suggest everyone visit, you realise how big 60feet is when you look out on the top of them and see its the largest structure you can see:).

But culturally one thing that would be interesting is that to the Amerindian cultures whether Arawak, Mayan, Mississippian or Nahautl in OTL all of those had huge cultural similarities. At least all of them built ball courts anyways. In this combined timeline I would suspect there would be the idea similar to how the Europeans of the era referred to Christiandom. So considering what cultural connections could be formed through increased trade I would suspect to see a greater level of this.
 
1) The big difference might be the Arawaks might have a reason to go up the Atlantic Seaboard. It seemed like in BANW the Arawaks were mostly raiders, but with larger populations they might need to set up settler colonies.

2) The transmission of the potato might be an addition to the upper Megalopotamians. This would be likely because not only is there an advanced sea trading/raiding/settling group but also a greater reason to contact that far north. To put a date on this I think 400 A.D. at the peak of Arawak civilization and the founding of the first upper Megalopotamian dynasties.

3) The mayans were bigger expanders in Mississippi Rice but in BANW they were considered minor peoples. This is based on the super organzied Tlon, which I think would be butterflied out of existence. There would probably be a larger more substantial Arawak empire so that the Tlon can't organize their super state.

4) Also the Mound builders in OTL had astronomy as well without Mayan influence. At least it would seem so because of the placement and precision of some of the Mound sights. Which as Native-fanboy I suggest everyone visit, you realise how big 60feet is when you look out on the top of them and see its the largest structure you can see:).

5) But culturally one thing that would be interesting is that to the Amerindian cultures whether Arawak, Mayan, Mississippian or Nahautl in OTL all of those had huge cultural similarities. At least all of them built ball courts anyways. In this combined timeline I would suspect there would be the idea similar to how the Europeans of the era referred to Christiandom. So considering what cultural connections could be formed through increased trade I would suspect to see a greater level of this.

1) IIRC in BANW the *Arawaks went to as far as Georgia. Will they be sailing even further north ? Up until Virginia and further ?

2) Interesting on the Potato part. I wonder what will happen to the Great Lakes region....

3) Well, we can certainly take the Tlons aside here. I'm more interested on the prospect of the Mayans ITTL. They won't survive the *Arawak raids, but in the long term I suspect that TTL' 14th century Mayans can be better off compared to OTL 14th century. More likely for the Mayans to acquire the alternative to slash and burn farming method.... (oh yes, Hresvelgr ;))

4) I'm aware of that :) The prospect of their ideas meeting with that of the Mayans is what interest me.

5) If the region would be dominated by a common religion, I certainly agree, and such certainly can happen ITTL. Maybe the *Arawaks can be the New World, maritime version of the Arabs, and besides they'll most likely be more than just raiders anyway. Without it though, I'd say that the region will be more similar to the Classical Middle East. (the BCE one)...
 
I see the Mississippi Rice TL likely would unchanged up to the point the Bronze Age New World TL starts. With the the Arawaks developing there navigation technology around 400 AD about the same time the Mississippian start to open trades routes in the Gulf of Mexico. By 500 AD The Arawaks take to the sea in force most likely would cut the trade between Megalopotamian and Mesocolombian(Mesoamerican) because of better ship technology of the Arawaks. The Arawaks would likely also the Megalopotamian along with the Mesocolombian(Mesoamerican).

Major epidemic diseases are Tloggotl virus and the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever from the Bronze Age New World TL from the two Mississippi Rice TLs you have the The Sweataches from the first Mississippi Rice TL. In virgin-fields the Tloggotl virus had kill rate of 20% the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever had a kill of 5% and the Sweataches had a kill of 0% to 5% in northern areas and 5% to 15% in the tropical and subtropical regions.
 
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