A 'Native American' Wank?

Well, I have got to say I partly agree with GreatScottMarty. I disagree that the Americans of the Northeast had all the technologies they needed, and also think that as they were very different from the central americans, they would have done some very different things if they could have gotten their hands on central american tech.

But I definitly agree that the immune systems problem was the big one, and it dwarfs everything else.

Now if the Norse managed to transfer lots of their stuff to the Americans around 950 or so, and the europeans made contact in 1500, the Americans would come crashing down just as hards as they did OTL. But god damn, it would be such an interesting 500 years in between!

@Umbral: You could make an argument for the Aztecs and Mayans as having currency. Trading cacao beans for other items does sound more like bartering, but cacao beans were treated as the typical trade item and were pretty standardized, with standards for other objects being the price of however many beans. Like it was pretty set that rabbits were 10 beans.

Yes, and they had metalworking too. But my point was, the americans of the Northeast didn't. And they had, I think, about the same level of access to central american tech as the Norse had to Chinese tech.

Everything here has excellent points and I like the idea of north eastern American Natives receiving a tech boost from the Vikings.

However possibly the most important (and most likely to end up as a wank) acquisition the Iroquois (or any other tribe could make) would be wheat. If form some reason the Vikings had brought some seeds in their boats and wheat ended up in the Americas the variety of food supply would increase dramatically, resulting in higher population density, which would in turn drastically affect culture.
Getting the horse would also be a huge advantage.

I think the general opinion on this board is that afer immune systems, the horse would have given the greatest boost to the Americans.

I disagree with this. I think the ship tech would have been more important.

If I may be permitted a handwave for the sake of speculation, let me handwave a Norse-American contact that transfers Norse ship tech to the Americans.
What happens next? The American group in question has increased foood supply trough fishing, seals and whaling. They have vastly increased mobility. It is likly they will grow and prosper while their neighbours are assimilated, untill the neighbours catch up. So a strong confederacy in the center, with neighbours embarking on a similar expansion around it.
The Norse ship tech were pretty adapted to river portage and crossing lakes etc, so the tech should spread rapidly across the great lakes, and down the coast. Less so once you get too far north for the trees to be good for shipbuilding.

The second tier of sailors will have less of a food advantage, but will still enjoy military and trading advantages. Ships will go down to the mound culture to trade, and they might be very interested.
Once the tech hits the Caribbean, all bets are off, its going to be like an american version of the mediterranean. Imagine ideas and trade running from the coast of Venezuela up the Mississippi and city-states on Cuba. Suddenly states in the North does have access to Central American tech, like the Norse could get ideas from Constantinople.

Trade Llamas to the Iroquis, and Caribou to the Incas.

What is more, imagine central american nations and cities able to project power to the european settlements in the Caribbean, or greet the europeans at sea!

But what happens to the original recipients of the ship tech? They are surrounded by stronger neighbours now, so where do they turn? Well, they have a fair population density, sailing skills and the maps of the Norse...why wouldn't the young braves raid east?

Iceland, then Ireland and Britain?

Imagine ships built over the general Norse longship model, with different totems than the dragon on the prow, and probably different types of shileds on the side, as the Americans will be better with the bow, slaving in the east. You're going to have fairly frequent crashes and uphevals ion the Americas as plagues burn through the lands, but you'll also have european slaves with adapted imunesystems which will be selected for once they get into the native gene pool.
 
Last edited:
Just realized I was paraphrasing Umbral above in more general terms, so edited this entire post lol

Agreement is centering on the disease issue, but the timeline is very compressed. The earliest the vikings could arrive would be 850AD and that's stretching plausibility. En masse would take at least a generation, so 950 to have them fairly established.

The first Europeans arrive in 1492 in the Caribbean. First Eastern seaboard colonists are not much longer after that, so call it 1500 for the first colonists to arrive on the eastern seaboard (and yes, I'm aware that Columbus wasn't the first in America in 1492, there were a few hardy pioneer explorer types before him, and much further north)

So in ~500 years, the Natives would need to consolidate, merge, unify etc. AND find some way to develop immunity to disease.

That is not easy.


How about we utilize ancient Celtic legends of the Danaans western flee/run when overrun themselves? That'd be more liked around x century BC, giving the Americas a full thousand years of time or more. Predating the Iroqois unfortunately - but also predating Cahokia too.

More time would be more feasible, but I'm sad to see the NE Amerindian Confederacy go bye bye :(
 
Last edited:
I know by this point, its too late, but my archeologist friend told me the Comanche were beginning to make leather armor with adaption of the horse, similar to the stuff in Mongolia and other steppe peoples. It was abandoned as guns were adapted; but I could believe the composite bow and other developments weren't far behind. Sadly, this cultural evolution only resulted because of European colonization, and the steppe empires of Asia were long being beaten back by this point as well.

I have to say it does shock me, the attitude of so many people that Natives need some outside European savior or model to pull a wank. As so many others pointed out, there were some very advanced and sophisticated cultures that could have grown into powers, given more time and immunity to disease.

This supposed attitude may "shock you", but it is based on some very real facts. Technological development is not inevitable. The fact that some Native American groups developed highly sophisticated and stratified civilizations, and others were on the route to such an adaptation, this does not mean any would simply evolve into technological "powers" equivalent to 16th century Europe, Islam, or China if "left alone". In many key technological developments considered key to the development of all old world "powers" (metallurgy, adoption of the wheel and all the other labour saving devices this concept supports, domestication of draft animals, the use of the sail and large constructed vessels, etc), there was little to differentiate the technology of the Clasisc Maya or Post Classic Mexican civilizations their own archaic ancestors 2000 years prior or from contemporary far simpler cultures in north america. Absent the diffusion of ideas and concepts from the old world, there is absolutely no reason to believe any new world peoples would make that technological leap. This is not a knock on native americans...without the diffusion of ideas and competition from many different civilized core areas in the old world, cultural innovation in Europe, the middle east, and asia would also have been slower.

Regarding the original thread, I would agree that some sort of slow, gradual, and long term contacts with the Norse by Northeastern Woodland peoples(assuming a more intrusive Norse presence than in OTL, of course) is probably the best way to have key technologies be adopted and diffuse through north america and avoid the effects of disease and outright conquest. Also, as a less "sophisticated" society than the Mississippians or MesoAmericans, people like the Iroquois are better positioned to adopt new innovations. Remember, when the Spanish showed up, the Aztecs or Maya did not immediately adopt the horse, european fighting styles, or firearms when they saw them, while far simpler peoples of the Great Plains and Great Basin immediately adopted these new techniques. Sometimes being "civilized" stifles innovation when it is most needed.

You still have to do something in Europe to delay the 15th-16th century "age of exploration" for several hundred years. Do this and who knows, in the 1500's equestrian iron-age nomadic "chichimecs" from the vast north might have descended on Tenochtitlan and the other city states of Mexico, conquered the decadent Mexicans, become urban like the Mongol elites, and, with an improved iron-age technology backed by the intellectual and population resources of these urbanized civilizations, be much more ready to resist the Spaniards when they finally show up in, say, 1776.
 
...some additional notes from OTL

According to the Icelandic sagas ("Eirik the Red's Saga" and the "Saga of the Greenlanders"—chapters of the Hauksbók and the Flatey Book), the Norse started to explore lands to the west of Greenland only a few years after the Greenland settlements were established. In 985 while sailing from Iceland to Greenland with a migration fleet consisting of 400-700 settlers[5][6] and 25 other ships (14 of which completed the journey), a merchant named Bjarni Herjólfsson was blown off course and after three days sailing he sighted land west of the fleet. Bjarni was only interested in finding his father's farm, but he described his discovery to Leif Ericson who explored the area in more detail and planted a small settlement fifteen years later.[5]
Thorvald's voyage
In 1004, Leif's brother Thorvald Ericson sailed with a crew of 30 men to Newfoundland and spent the following winter at Leif's camp. In the spring, Thorvald attacked nine of the local people, who were sleeping under three skin-covered canoes. The ninth victim escaped and soon came back to the Norse camp with a force. Thorvald himself was killed by an arrow that succeeded in passing through the barricade. Although brief hostilities ensued, the Norse explorers stayed another winter and left the following spring. Subsequently another of Leif's brothers, Thorstein, sailed to the New World to retrieve his dead brother's body, but he only stayed for one summer.[5]
[edit] Karlsefni's expedition
It was in 1009 that Thorfinn Karlsefni, also known as "Thorfinn the Valiant", supplied three ships with livestock and 160 men and women[6] (although another source sets the number of settlers at 250). After a cruel winter, he headed south and landed at Straumfjord, but later moved to Straumsöy, possibly because the current was stronger there. A sign of peaceful relations between the indigenous peoples and the Norsemen is noted here; the two sides bartered with furs and gray squirrel skins for milk and red cloth, which the natives tied around their heads as a sort of headdress.

There are conflicting stories but one account states that a bull belonging to Karlsefni came storming out of the wood, so frightening the natives that they ran to their skin-boats and rowed away. They returned three days later, in force. The natives used catapults, hoisting "a large sphere on a pole; it was dark blue in color" and about the size of a sheep's belly,[7] which flew over the heads of the men and made an ugly din.[7] The Norsemen retreated. Leif Ericson's half-sister Freydís Eiríksdóttir was pregnant and unable to keep up with the retreating Norsemen. She called out to them to stop fleeing from "such pitiful wretches", adding that if she had weapons, she could do better than that. Freydís seized the sword belonging to a man who had been killed by the natives. She pulled one of her breasts out of her bodice and struck it with the sword, frightening the natives, who fled.[7]
Now, if Bjarni (and settlers) were blown a little further south into greener land and decided to forgo finding his fathers farm for a later time, then we have a substantial influx of Vikings as settlers.

Now, if Bjarni was blown further south, into an area combining both timber & pasture, and wasn't quite so determined to find his father that he immediately ignored the land, then we have a fairly significant influx of viking colonists, with forge AND cows.

Then, if the first encounters with the natives were a bit more peaceful than the brothers in OTL, then we have a significant merchant interest from two directions - trade with the natives, and the local timber needed in greenland - as well as the several hundred settlers.

People in greenland would certainly migrate, if possible, once they heard of the niceties. More settlers would also come when word of the fishing to be had off the new coast was relayed back.

With very little hand waving, several thousand settlers in a 100 year time frame becomes very possible.

In that same generation, the indians are exposed to the diseases of Europe (though not smallpox perhaps? hadn't hit europe pre1100), but also to all the tech's we've discussed in this thread. Given the constant viking trade routes, small pox will arrive eventually, probably within 20 years of it hitting the mainland.

All it does, really, is give even more space available to those with the new technologies and social advances from the Vikings room to grow.


I will stop there, in speculation, as I need to know a) where that spot bjarni landed that would be ideal would be, and b) what tribes might be there ~985 to 1050.

The spot would need a) old timber, b) pastureland for cows & sheep & pigs (though pigs do fine in forest) and c) a sweet little harbor with excellent fishing.


If we can find that spot, I think the TL might be doable after all.
 
I think this handles the Norse end pretty well. Put them anywhere from New England to Newfoundland in these quantities, you have numerous avenues for the trade and diffusion of animals, tools and weapons farther into the interior. I would not worry about individual "tribes" at this point, what you are talking about is a general diffusion of technologies to a broad range of indigenous Woodland farmers and hunters.

I still have concerns that 400-500 years might not be long enough for this gradual diffusion to lead to spatially large, populous, and militarily powerful native states capable of successfully resisting the initial waves of European intrusion in the 15th and 16th centuries. To get this you really need to graft these new technologies onto the large, literate urban centers of MesoAmerica, which will take some time, both because of the distance between Mexico and the initial areas of Norse intrusion and likely cultural conservatism from the established Mexican elites. To significantly alter the course of European conquest, the initial Europeans who reach North America in force need to be faced with civilizations that appear sufficiently advanced and capable of protecting themselves that the first thoughts are of trade agreements or a gradual incorporation into an area of influence rather than immediate conquest and looting.

I doubt if anything would eliminate the likelihood that the Americas would eventually be colonized or dominated by European powers. The choice, however, is between being treated like North America, Mexico or Peru OTL or India and China in the 19th century.
 
I think this handles the Norse end pretty well. Put them anywhere from New England to Newfoundland in these quantities, you have numerous avenues for the trade and diffusion of animals, tools and weapons farther into the interior. I would not worry about individual "tribes" at this point, what you are talking about is a general diffusion of technologies to a broad range of indigenous Woodland farmers and hunters.

I still have concerns that 400-500 years might not be long enough for this gradual diffusion to lead to spatially large, populous, and militarily powerful native states capable of successfully resisting the initial waves of European intrusion in the 15th and 16th centuries. To get this you really need to graft these new technologies onto the large, literate urban centers of MesoAmerica, which will take some time, both because of the distance between Mexico and the initial areas of Norse intrusion and likely cultural conservatism from the established Mexican elites. To significantly alter the course of European conquest, the initial Europeans who reach North America in force need to be faced with civilizations that appear sufficiently advanced and capable of protecting themselves that the first thoughts are of trade agreements or a gradual incorporation into an area of influence rather than immediate conquest and looting.

I doubt if anything would eliminate the likelihood that the Americas would eventually be colonized or dominated by European powers. The choice, however, is between being treated like North America, Mexico or Peru OTL or India and China in the 19th century.

I am not sure by what you mean "the initial waves" of European colonization in the 15th and 16th century. Frankly, not many Europeans came over during that time and the purpose of coming over was purely built on success and chance. In other words I would argue that there was no truely concerted or organized colonization of the Americas.

The Spanish and Portuguese colonies were mainly populated by slaves from West Africa. And early reports from Hispanola show that the Europeans there were under constant fear of slave revolt. They were mainly in control of San Domingo and nothing else.

The main problem isn't the Europeans since they were few in number. The main problem is their Animals which carry small pox.

I think that stopping European "domination" would be very easy given a little more organized states and resistance to the deadly disease.

In West Africa the Europeans encountered tribal societies that could often raise some impressive armies but overall were politically disunited, and were sometimes unable to resist the Europeans. Yet I would not call the first 400 years of European contact domination. The various european states would merely set up a trading stations and in some zones conquer and settle but for the most part they did not dominate but to trade.

European Domination of interior Africa only came as late as the 19th century. Now given that time frame I think that North American Aboriginals could pull off at least that, if they are given disease resistance.
 
If the Americas can hang onto its Mega-fauna until domestication that would be a game changer. Think of it tamed Mastadons and Mammoths, domesticated Bison and Horses.

It be great if some pigs had crossed the Bering straight land bridge in at least one of the multiplicity of times that it has formed. Just imagine if Indians had to deal with them rumaging through their gardens its possible natives would have developed fencing and maybe some form of private ownership(no you can't have Manhatten for $5).

It'd be awesome if say the Tainos/Arawak developed the same navigation package the Polynesians developed and could spread ideas such as Terra Preta around enhancing development of all the Americas.

Oh and have cultural norms develop to spread and take advantage of(or at least not hinder)technologies such as the wheel and metal working.

And have Da Vinci realise the link between cow pox and smallpox. Sure this means more Europeans for the Americans to fight but still its a big plus for the Americas as its easier to kill a Spaniard with blade than to kill smallpox.
 
Hee Danwild6 - see an earlier post by me... WI: The Younger Dryas Didn't Happen? It's a longer TL that I'm still note collecting on, but it'd be right up your alley.


Disclaimer 1) This is a PRELIMINARY outline of OTL, posted for feedback and ideas on further research into the time period of the progenitors of the Native American Wankfest.

Disclaimer 2) I would really like to find someone who is very familiar with OTL N. Europe or even all of Europe around 0AD to 1650AD who can help with the European Theatre. Without such a person, I'm going to focus exclusively on NA and avoid anything vaguely European until 1500 at the earliest.

This is OTL. Bjarni is still looking good as a POD, but now I've discovered traces of Alban's from Scotland merging with the Tinut of Southern Quebec. That's a whole different ballgame, and might be the best POD.

It's in the OTL below, and while this one is in Date/Entry format, I intend to do a propery storyline through the eyes of various families. I'd start with Bjarni & Eirik to begin with, but I'd include a NA family at some time too.

again, preliminary notes - looking for feedback on specific topics to think about.


according to the sagas the Norse expeditions westward from Greenland brought them to three regions which they named Helluland, Markland and Vinland, now identified as Baffin Island, Labrador and Newfoundland respectively

Mowat points out that an island, Ultima Thule, which he claims is actually Iceland, appears in the Atlantic in early maps before Iceland was settled by the Vikings. He argues that Iceland was already known because it had been discovered and settled by 'Albans', who survived by trading walrus ivory. In support of this he cites the Viking Sagas, which state that the Viking discoverers of Iceland found it to be already inhabited, a fact that modern scholarship has always found puzzling. Mowat argues that the Vikings overran the Albans, who survived only because they had already discovered and settled Greenland.
Iceland was called Thule before the Vikings

300 BC Pytheus, after running the Phoenician blockade at the pillars of Hercules, finds Britain, Ireland, and is guided to Iceland where he finds natives.

51 BC - Romans are slaughtering picts in from the Bay of Biscay in Brittany to south of the Loire, engaging in near genocide.
55 BC - Escaping Genocide, Picts sail North and West. Ireland and England are denied them, but Albans (Scotland highlands) allow them into S. Scotland as a buffer against the Kelts
60 BC - First wave of new immigrants into Iceland, escaping the brutality of wars in the British Isles

43 AD - Romans invade England until driven out in 400 AD, but attacks push Kelts -> Picts -> Albans

AD 400+ - Picts are joined by Scotti from Ireland in driving Romans out of Scotland (England too?)

AD 565 Keltic Christian Priest of Ireland arrive in N. Scotland to convert Albans & Picts (Cruithne)

500-600 ad - Scotland is torn by civil wars between Pict, Scot, and Northumbria in 664 the Celtic Chuch, centered in Iona island, and the Rome Church were summoned to Synod and the then king Oswy decided in favor of Rome - so Scotland (by any other name) became Roman Catholic eventually. More picts escape to Iceland to move away from constant war.

734 AD - Oenges, son of Fergus, established rule over all of Scotland territory by conquest, but confusion reigned after his death.

750 AD - Alban descended explorers from Iceland establish wintering quarters in Greenland -- Alban longhouses are very distinctive with curved stone walls and no roof as upturned boats were used.

789 AD Constantine became King of united Albans and Picts

793 AD In England the Viking Age began dramatically on 8 June 793 when Norsemen destroyed the abbey on the island of Lindisfarne. The devastation of Northumbria's Holy Island shocked and alerted the royal Courts of Europe to the Viking presence.

794 AD Viking raiders hit England, Scotland, Ireland at random and at will

806 AD Celtic Church of Iona destroyed by vikings

810 AD Systematic collapse of Dorset culture and replacement by Recent Indian populations coinciding with warming climate

858 AD After numerous succession wars, and near destruction by vikings, Scotland reunited as Kingdom of Alba, including the Scottii descendants and Picts. Matrilineal descent of Kingship long since a tradition.

860 AD Gardar Svavarsson the Swede or Naddod the Viking "discovers" Gardarsholm (Iceland) about this time [Jones, A History of the Vikings; Íslendingabók] Vikings arrive in Iceland, to find a Christian people already there. They live in small farms and live on farm food and sea bounty.

865 AD Flokek Vilgerdson (Floki Vilgerdason), a Norwegian farmer, tries to settle in Gardarsholm/Snaeland/Iceland. The winter is bad enough that all of his cattle die, and he renames the place "Iceland" and goes home.

870 AD Norse colonize Iceland

900 AD Viking raids push Alban descendants west, first to Greenland, then N. Quebec where they mingled with the Dorsets till climate forced them south into NewFoundLand (Vinland)

902 AD Dublin captured by the Norse.

920 AD Blown off course between Norway and Iceland, Gunnbjorn Ulfsson (or Ulf-Krakuson) sights lands west of Iceland [Landnamabok].

950 AD Vikings arrive in Newfoundland and find two distinctly different populations. One, where the Albans and Dorsets had intermingled, and a second one of Tunits who promptly vanished from the record. The Inuit mention the Tunits as 'asliens' of 'large stature' who would prefer to leave an area rather than contest it in conflict.

980 AD Eirik the Red, and his father Thorvald Asvaldsson leave SW Norway because "of some killings", and travel to Iceland. Eirik marries Thordhild Jorundsdaughter (a relative of Snaebjorn Galti, and a great-grandchild of Eyvind the Easterner) and moved to her lands at Haukadale. After some more killings, Eirik moves to the islands near Briedafjord [Graenlendinga Saga] Major famine in Iceland and much of North and Northwest Europe.

982 AD Eirik the Red, named outlaw by Thorgest in Iceland, heads west to see Gunbjorn Ulfssons Greenland lands

980 AD Eirik the Red, and his father Thorvald Asvaldsson leave SW Norway because "of some killings", and travel to Iceland. Eirik marries Thordhild Jorundsdaughter (a relative of Snaebjorn Galti, and a great-grandchild of Eyvind the Easterner) and moved to her lands at Haukadale. After some more killings, Eirik moves to the islands near Briedafjord [Graenlendinga Saga] Major famine in Iceland and much of North and Northwest Europe.

983 AD Hvitramannaland ("White Man's Land"), supposedly near Vinland the Good, is purportedly visited by Ari Marsson (another relative of Thordhild Jorundsdaughter).

984 Eirik returns to Iceland and convinces others to join him in Greenland [Graenlendinga Saga]

985 - The Landnam - 25 ships leave for Greenland, 14 of which arrive.Eirik establishes his farm at Brattahlid (Eastern Settlement). Others settle at Osterbygd (Eastern Settlement), and Vesterbygd (Western Settlement) [Graenlendinga Saga].Bjarni Herjolfsson is blown off course and sights three lands further to the west, before arriving at his father's farm at Herjolfsnes [Graenlendinga Saga]

1000 AD
Leif Eiriksson is charged by King Olaf Tryggvason to preach Christianity in Greenland [Graenlendinga Saga]. (N.B. This may not have actually taken place, but may have been a later inclusion to the Sagas.)
On his way home, Leif rescues a shipwrecked Crew, and earns the name "the Lucky" [Graenlendinga Saga].
Leif is blown off course, and lands in Vinland. Nearing Greenland he rescues people from a shipwreck. Eirik doesn't accept Christianity, but Thordhild has a church built [Eiriks Saga Rauda].
King Olaf Tryggvason dies at the sea-fight at Svold. Eirik Hakonarson succeeds him.
Thordhild reputedly embraced the new faith and built a church. (Eirik the Red was still alive when his son returned [Graenlendinga Saga]).
Bjarni Herjolfsson travels to Norway, and becomes a retainer of Eirik Hakonarson [Graenlendinga Saga].
The Althing in Iceland adopts Christianity [Encyclopedia Britannica].

1001 AD
Bjarni Herjolfsson returns to Greenland [Graenlendinga Saga].
Leif Eiriksson buys Bjarni's boat and tries to encourage Eirik the Red to lead them. Eirik fell off a horse and hurt himself. Leif sails west, first landing at Helluland, then sailing cross the sea to Markland, and then across the sea to an island, then into a sound between the island and a cape projecting north from the land itself. West of the cape, they run aground in shallows, and finally move their ship upriver into a salmon filled lake. There they build "Leifsbudir" or "Leif's Booths". It is at Leifsbudir that Tyrkir, the German, discovers the grapevines which they name Vinland after. They winter at Vinland [Graenlendinga Saga].
Thorgils Orrabeinfostre and his crew are shipwrecked on the East Coast of Greenland, and they take three years to return to civilization. During their adventures they encounter "witches" that may be Dorset Eskimos.
(Peak years for sea salt sodium in Greenland Ice (.125) This indicates a lot of storms.)
There is said to be a rune stone on Nomans Island, near Martha's Vineyard that says "Leif Eriksson, 1001" and possibly something about "Vinland" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomans_Land_(Massachusetts)]

1002 AD
Leif returns to Greenland and rescues Thorir Eastman, his wife Gudrid Thorbjarnardottir, and their shipwrecked crew. Earning him the name "The Lucky" [Graenlendinga Saga].
Sickness kills Thorir, and Eirik the Red [Graenlendinga Saga] (Graenlendinga Saga also says that Eirik the Red died before the coming of Christianity).
Thorvald Eiriksson takes Leif's ship and travels to Vinland and Leifsbudir [Graenlendinga Saga].

1397 AD The Kalmar Treaty formalized the union of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

1402 AD Black Plague in Iceland

1418 AD English getting involved w/ Icelandic politics. Fishermen & priests present. Papal letter of 1448 reports the pagan invasion of Greenland and enslaving of Christians.

1472-3 A Danish-Norwegian expedition sailed for Greenlands waters led by Didrik Pining and Hans Pothorst at the insistence of the Portuguese to look for new lands to the west. They spy Eskimos east of Cape Farewell [Norlund, Viking Settlers in Greenland] [This may have taken place as late as 1476 [email from Alfredo Pinheiro Marques to MapHist and Discovery 28 March 2000]]

1003
Thorvald Eiriksson explores westwards along the coast [Graenlendinga Saga].

1004
Thorvald Eiriksson explores east from Leifsbudir and north. They run aground and crack the keel. They set up the keel and name the location Kjarlarnes. They repair the vessel and explore east, and at the mouth of two fjords they find and kill eight Skraelings sleeping under skin boats [Graenlendinga Saga]. In response, "countless" Skraelings in skin boats attack them. Thorvald Eiriksson is killed, and buried at the site he named Krossanes [Graenlendinga Saga].

1005
Thorvald's crew returns to Greenland [Graenlendinga Saga].
Thorstein Eiriksson (and his wife Gudrid Thorbjarnardottir) tries to travel to Vinland to recover his brother's body, but he is forced by winter's approach to turn back and they land at Lysufjord in the Western Settlement. They meet Thorstein the Black (or Franklin Thorstein) who invites them to stay with him [Graenlendinga Saga]. A fever kills Thorstein the Black's wife, Grimhild, and Thorstein Eiriksson. Thorstein Eiriksson temporarily returns from the dead to prophesy about Gudrid's future [Graenlendinga Saga].
Thorstein Eiriksson takes Thorbjorn's boat and prepares to sail for Vinland. Eirik is intending on going with him, but falls off his horse and is injured so he can't go. Thorstein is battered about but doesn't find Vinland [Eiriks Saga Rauda].
Thorstein marries Gudrid Thorbjarnardottir. They go to visit Thorstein and Sigrid in at Lysufjord in Western Settlement. There is a sickness and Thorstein Eiriksson and Sigrid die. Thorstein comes back from the dead to prophesy about many things, including burning the foreman Gardar for causing the sickness, and Gudrid's future [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1006
Escorted by Thorstein the Black, Gudrid returns to Eiriksfjord [Greenlander's Saga, Eiriks Saga Rauda].
Thorfinn Thordsson karlsefni arrives at Eiriksfjord [Graenlendinga Saga, Eiriks Saga Rauda]. Karlsefni arrives with Snorri Thorbrandsson in two ships [Eiriks Saga Rauda].
Gudrid Thorbjarnardottir and Thorfinn karlsefni marry that winter [Graenlendinga Saga, Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1007
Thorfinn karlsefni and Gudrid sail to Leifsbudir [Graenlendinga Saga].
Thorfinn karlsefni, Gudrid, Snorri, and Thorvald, Eirik the Red's Son-in-law, and Thorhall sail to Vinland [Eiriks Saga Rauda]. They find a place like the keel of a ship that they name Kjarlarnes. They find long beaches they name Furdustrandr "Marvel Strands". South of Furdustrandr, they go ashore at an island they name Straumsey, and find a place they name Straumsfjord. Snorri Thorfinnson is born [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1008
Karlsefni's people meet the Skraelings. They trade milk for furs. Karlsefni builds a large stockade around his house [Graenlendinga Saga].
Gudrid gives birth to Snorri Thorfinnsson [Graenlendinga Saga].
That winter, they are approached by Skraelings again. Gudrid sees a strange woman. One of the Skraelings is killed. They meet for a third time and fight [Graenlendinga Saga].
Karlsefni and his people split up with Thorhall, who wants to explore for Vinland to the North. Thorhall is blown off course and lands in Ireland, where he dies. Karlselfni and his people continue south to Hop, "Land lock Bay". There they find Skraelings in skin boats. Karlsefni and his people set up houses [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1009
Karlsefni packs up and sails for Eiriksfjord [Graenlendinga Saga]. Helgi and Finnbogi arrive in Greenland. They are approached by Freydis Eiriksdottir (who lives in Gardar with her husband Thorvard). She invites them to accompany her to Vinland. They take two ships and winter in Vinland. During the winter, the two parties become more distrustful and Freydis arranges to have Helgi and Finnbogi killed. She kills their women herself [Graenlendinga Saga].
Karlsefni's people fight the Skraelings, but they are driven off by the pregnant Freydis. Karlselfni and his people sail north to Straumsfjord, where they kill more Skraelings. They are attacked by Skraelings. A Uniped kills Thorvald [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1010
Freydis and Thorvard return to Eiriksfjord. Eventually Leif hears of her misdeeds and curses her [Graenlendinga Saga].
Karlsefni sailed to Norway with a richly filled ship [Graenlendinga Saga].
Karlsefni and his people return to Greenland. They find several Skraelings and bring two native boys they dragged home for baptism. Bjarni's ship starts to founder, and so they abandon it and much of the crew, who eventually find their way to Ireland [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1011
Karlsefni sells his figurehead (carved of Vinland "maple") to a man from Bremen for a Mark of gold. Then he and Gudrid sail for Iceland [Graenlendinga Saga].

1012
Karlsefni builds his home at Glaumbaejarland in Iceland (his ship (or Bjarni/Leif's ship) is drawn ashore at Skagafjord) [Graenlendinga Saga].
Karlsefni returns to Iceland with Gudrid [Eiriks Saga Rauda].

1040
Radiocarbon date from a wood find at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland [Wallace. Norse Expansion into North America]. [It should be noted that the dating of these finds is debated, and it is generally believed that this site is a Norse site]

About 1050
(Minor low in Sea salt sodium in Greenland Ice (.095) indicating severe storminess)

Between 1050-1100
The Thule Inuit move rapidly from Alaska to Greenland about this time. Earliest dates from "Skraeling Island" are from about this time.

1053
(6 Jan) Pope Leo IX gives Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen, custody of the people of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, and Greenland. (First official mention of Greenland).

1056
Isleif Gizuerarson becomes the first native bishop of Iceland.

???
Audun travels from Greenland to Denmark to give the King a polar bear [Audun's Story].
Adam of Bremen visits the Danish court [Magnusson. The Vinland Sagas]

1060
Latest possible radiocarbon date from a wood find at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland [Wallace. Norse Expansion into North America]. [It should be noted that the dating of these finds is debated, and it is generally believed that this site is a Norse site]

1066-93
The reign of the Norwegian king Olaf Kyrri, within whose dates the "Maine Coin" was minted.

1072-6
Iceland, Greenland and Vinland are mentioned by Adam of Bremen's Descriptio insularum aquilonis or Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum [Jones, 1964:85; Vaughan, 326].

About 1100
Saxo Grammaticus writes his history of the Danes.

Early 1100s
Thule Inuit reach Nordresetr, Greenland's Disko Bay.
Landnamabok compiled.

1100-1300
(Very Warm in England)

1112
Eirik Gnuppson upsi leaves Iceland to become Bishop at Sandnes [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1121
Bishop Eirik apparently leaves Greenland in search of Vinland, never to be heard from again [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar]. {Some people claim he assumed the name Heinricus Hop, and is purported to be responsible for some runestones in New England}.
{Purported dates of the Latin legends in the Vinland Map}

1122-5
Ari Thorgilsson the Learned writes Islendingabok.

1123
Sokki Thorisson becomes chieftain of Brattahlid. He sends his son Einar (with a live polar bear) to meet with King Sigurd "Jerusalemfarer" for a new bishop [Story of Einar Sokkason]

1124
Arnald becomes Bishop of Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1125
Arnald, Einar and the merchant Arnbjorn set sail in two or three vessels for Greenland. They encounter a storm and are split up [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].
Arnald and Einar winter in Iceland with Bishops Thorlak Runolfsson of Skalholt (Great Grandson of karlsefni) and Ketil of Holar [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].
Íslendingabók is written about this time.
{Date of the Spirit Pond inscriptions}

1130
Hunters lead by Sigurd Njalsson discover one of Arnbjorn's vessels aground on the Eastern Shore. Sigurd and his people strip the bones of the dead and burn the ship. They return home with the bones for burial, and the nails from the ship. This sparks a long running legal battle over the ownership of the vessel and cargo [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1131
Three merchant ships with many Icelanders and Norwegians, including Arnbjorn's heirs sail to Greenland and winter there [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].
About 1150

Sicilian geographer al-Idrisi, in Nuzhat al-Mushtaq, describes what could be taken for Eskimos.

1150-1400
("Very cold" in Crete)

1152
Bishop Arnald becomes Bishop of Hamar, and returns to Norway. Jon knutr becomes Bishop of Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

About 1155
Ungava/Dorset copper amulet site.

About 1170
Norse hunters in Nordresetr encounter Skraelings (Thule Inuit).

About 1080
The calibrated carbon dates for the Brattahlid site -appear- to be about 1080 +/- 125 years [based on a chart in Arenborg, et.al. "C-14 dating and the disappearance of Norsemen from Greenland" Europhysics News 33:3 (2002)]
1187

"No ships arrived in Iceland"

1188
Jon smyrill Sverrifostri becomes Bishop of Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1189
Bishop Jon smyrill arrives in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].
Asmund kastanrassi arrives in Iceland on board a Greenland built ship.
The Stangarfoli (or Stangfolen), sailing from Bergen to Iceland is lost enroute and is shipwrecked on the Eastern Shore of Greenland, carrying the priest Ingimund [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar, Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1195
Bishop Pall of Skalholt (Iceland) brought glass to his cathedral.
About 1200
Approximate date of the writing of the Graenlendinga saga.
St. Nicholas' cathedral at Gardar built [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].
The priest Ingimund's body is found in a cave on the Eastern Shore [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1203
Bishop Jon visits Iceland on his way to Rome and returning to Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1209
Bishop Jon dies in Greenland, and is buried in the cemetary at Gardar [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1212
Bishop Helgi arrives in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1219
"No ships arrived in Iceland"

1230
Bishop Helgi dies in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].
Between 1230-40
There is no Bishop in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1234
Nicholas is consecrated as Helgi's successor Bishop, but remains in Norway [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].
About 1235
Possible occupation of the Goddard site in Maine, and the internment of the "Maine Penny".

1237
Both Icelandic Bishops (Gudmund of Holar and Magnus of Skalholt) die.

1238
Both Icelandic Bishops are replaced.

1240
Bishop Nicholas finally arrives in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1241
Snorri Sturlsson is killed in a struggle over who gets to name Bishops in Iceland.

1242
Bishop Nicholas dies [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1245
Approximate date of the writing of the Speculum Regale (Kings Mirror) (N.B., the author discusses Greenland, but NOT anything further west).

1247
Bishop Olaf is sent to Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

About 1250
Estimated date of Thule figurine on Baffin Island. Approximate date of wool at Skraeling Island.
(Major low in Sea salt sodium in Greenland Ice (.085) indicating very little storm activity.)
Approximate early date for Kingigtorssuaq Rune Stone in Nordresetr (Possible dates extends all the way to 1333).
The calibrated carbon dates for the Gardar site -appear- to be about 1255 +/- 50 years [based on a chart in Arenborg, et.al. "C-14 dating and the disappearance of Norsemen from Greenland" Europhysics News 33:3 (2002)]

1258
Three Norwegians are stuck in Greenland.

1260-80
Approximate date of Sturlubok redaction of Landnamabok.

1261
Three Norwegians return to Norway and report that the Greenlanders agreed to pay compensation for murder to the Norwegian King, whether the victim was Norwegian or Greenlander, and whether the crime took place as far north as Nordresetr or beyond. This is taken to mean that the Greenlanders surrender their sovereignty to Norway.

1262
Treaty formalized Norwegian royal monopoly on Iceland.
Bishop Olaf of Gardar is shipwrecked in Iceland.

1263
Covenant of Union between Norway and Iceland, which among other things, promised 6 trading ships per year, unless otherwise prohibited.
King Hakon died, succeeded by Magnus Hakonsson "Lawmender"
After 1263
Approximate date of the writing of Eiriks saga Rauda.

1264
Bishop Olaf of Gardar leaves Iceland for Norway.

1265
A ship bound for Greenland sinks [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1266
Bishop Olaf of Gardar is again shipwrecked in Iceland, while sailing from Greenland. This time he loses 12 men, and a vast cargo of walrus tusks at a place henceforth known as "Bishop's Reef", and that for the next three hundred years will occasionally produce walrus tusks [Norlund Viking Settlers in Greenland].
That summer, reports of Skraelings to the north of Nordresetr leads to an expedition far beyond Nordresetr find traces of Skraelings. This expedition travels at least three days north of 75 degrees, 46 minutes (Melville Bay?). Also pieces of wood marked by Skraelings appear to have washed ashore from the east (although the Eastern movement of the Inuit wouldn't be for several hundred more years) [Described in a letter from Haldor, a priest in Greenland to a cleric who had sailed with Olaf, written in 1270. Letter described in Magnusson, The Vinland Sagas, and Norlund, Viking Settlers in Greenland]

1267
Archbishop Jon the Red is consecrated at Nindaros/Trondheim.

About 1270 +/- 25
A species of New England soft shelled clams (M. arenaria) carbon dating from this time, are found in sand in northern Denmark ("the Kattgaw region on the east coast of the Skaw in northern Juteland"). They can not have gotten there without a ship [Petersen, Rassmussen, Heinemeier, Rud. "Clams before Columbus" Nature 359 (22 Oct. 1992) p.679. National Geographic, April 1993 places this date at "About 1245"]

1271
Bishop Olaf returns to Greenland.

1274
22 Polar bears wander ashore in Iceland and are killed.
The Council of Lyon decreed that all Christians must pay Six-Year Crusading Tithes.

1275
Date of corpse found in Vatnahverfi (Eastern Settlement).

1278
Two men are sent by the Archbishop of Nindaros to Greenland to help collect the Crusading Tithes.

1279
Pope Nicholas wrote that the See of Gardar was "visited infrequently because of the cruel ocean".
About 1280
Approximate date of chain mail find at Skraeling Island.

1280
King Magnus died, and was succeeded by Eirik Magnusson.
Bishop Olaf of Gardar died. There is no Bishop in Greenland until 1289 [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar]. The calibrated carbon dating of the body of the Bishop excavated at Gardar would appear to be about this time [Arenborg, et.al. "C-14 dating and the disappearance of Norsemen from Greenland" Europhysics News 33:3 (2002)]

1281
Archbishop Jon the Red deposits 31 silver bars in Tournai.

1282
Archbishop Jon the Red complains to the Pope that the Greenland luxury goods were "difficult to sell for a suitable price" (Hence claims that the bottom had dropped out of the market -- which seem to be untrue).
Archbishop Jon the Red flees Norway to Sweden and dies in exile.

1284
The money Jon the Red embezzled is returned to Norway.

1285
Two priests, Adalbrand and Thorvald Helgasonar drift off coarse and report seeing "New-Country" west of Iceland (probably Greenland).

About 1286
King Eirik sends Hrolf off to seek "New-Country".

1289
Bishop Thord arrives in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1294
Hanse merchants are given Royal permission to sail as far north as Bergen [Norlund, Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1299
King Eirik "Priesthater" dies and he is succeeded by his brother Hakon Magnusson.

About 1300
An Icelandic Geographical Treatise describes the Nordic lands, Ireland, England and Greenland as part of "Europe" [Magnusson, The Vinland Sagas]

1302
King Hakon's Rettarbot bans foreigners from trading north of Bergen, to Iceland, or to "any other tribute paying country".

1305
Arni becomes Bishop of Bergen.

1306-8
Approximate date of Hauksbok redaction of Landnamabok.
1306
Epidemic in Iceland

1308-19
(Lowest winter temperatures in Greenland until the 1500s)

1308
Bishop Arni of Bergen sends a subtle invitation to Bishop Thord to return to Norway. His letter contains news of the previous eight years.

1309
Bishop Thord returns to Norway. Epidemic in Iceland.

1310
Epidemic in Iceland.

1314
Both Bishops Arni and Thord die in Norway. Bishop Arni of Gardar is consecrated as Bishop of Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1315
Bishop Arni arrives in Greenland [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1324
Only 1 Norwegian ship visits Iceland this year.

1325
Bishop Audfinn of Bergen (old Arni's brother), complained in a letter to the Archbishop about the Trondheim merchants on the Greenland Knarr(s). This is the first mention of the Royal Greenland ships {Norlund, Viking Settlers in Greenland].

1326
NO ships from Norway reach Iceland.

1327
A Flanders merchant purchases the (2000 pounds) walrus Ivory from Greenland for 28 pounds of Silver.

1330
Approximate date of silver "Campbell" shield-badge found at V54 (Western Settlement)
Approximate date that Thule Inuit are at area of Western Settlement. (According to Inuit traditions they wanted to settle near Nordic farms. The Greenlanders did not allow this, but the two groups remained on good terms with one another. When the Greenlanders were attacked from the sea, the Inuit took in their women and children.

1333
1 Norwegian ship visited Iceland. Gardar is not mentioned at all in the Norwegian Tithe collection.
Before 1334?
Skalholtsbok written for Hauk Erlendsson (9th generation descendent of Thorfinn karlsefni). (Date is uncertain).

1340
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.

1341
The priest Ivar Bardarsson leaves Norway for Greenland to provide new registrations of the churches and claim the King's Rights, as the ombudsman of the Bishop of Bergen.
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.

1342
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.
Possible date of Ivar Bardarsson's visit to the Western Settlement.

1343-1362
(Longest period of colder than average years in Greenland)

1343
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.
Jon Eiriksson skalli is consecrated Bishop of Gardar by Archbishop Pal, who just didn't know Bishop Arni was still alive [Norlund, Norse Ruins at Gardar].

1344
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.
Thord Eigilsson sailed to Greenland and returned to Norway with a richly laden ship.

1345
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.

1346
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.
According to Annals, the Greenland Knarr arrives with many goods.

1347
Icelandic annals (Skalholtbok, Gottskalk's and Flateyjarbok) records the arrival of a Greenlander ship, with a crew of 17-18, driven to Iceland while enroute to Markland.
6 Norwegian trading ships to Iceland.
13 other oceangoing ships arrive in Iceland, and all 20 winter there.

1348
Bishop Arni died, possibly in Norway.
Before 1349?
Possible date before which Ivar Bardarsson might have visited the abandoned Western Settlement (as he expected to return to Norway about this time)

1349
The Black Death strikes Norway. Bishops Jon skalli of Gardar and Orm of Holar are the only Bishops to survive in Norway.

1350
NO ships from Norway reach Iceland.
Because of the lack of wine, mass is cancelled in all church annexes in Iceland.
 
*bump*

No comment?
No volunteers who might know what'd happen to Europe if the story of the Vikings changes slightly?
No desires to see 'interesting' stuff?


:)


I'll start posting TTL entries as soon as I get a few ahead.
 
Agreement is centering on the disease issue, but the timeline is very compressed. The earliest the vikings could arrive would be 850AD and that's stretching plausibility. En masse would take at least a generation, so 950 to have them fairly established.

The first Europeans arrive in 1492 in the Caribbean. First Eastern seaboard colonists are not much longer after that, so call it 1500 for the first colonists to arrive on the eastern seaboard (and yes, I'm aware that Columbus wasn't the first in America in 1492, there were a few hardy pioneer explorer types before him, and much further north)

Maybe we could have a POD where increased interest in Vinland is due to something that harms Europe? If we retard European development and expansion, we might realistically gain a century or so.

So in ~500 years, the Natives would need to consolidate, merge, unify etc. AND find some way to develop immunity to disease.

That is not easy.

Consolidate, yes. But do we need them to merge and unify to a large degree? If we drop NorseTech(TM) on them, we'll probably get a chaotic period where various peoples try different things and ideas.
I think a continent of hundreds of political entities will probably result in a more dynamic development, and faster adaption to the new tech.

Also, if we are going to increase the disease immunity, we cannot get around plagues, which will cause more chaos and crashes. The increased food production will blunt the effects slightly.

How about we utilize ancient Celtic legends of the Danaans western flee/run when overrun themselves? That'd be more liked around x century BC, giving the Americas a full thousand years of time or more. Predating the Iroqois unfortunately - but also predating Cahokia too.

More time would be more feasible, but I'm sad to see the NE Amerindian Confederacy go bye bye :(

Despite the legends, I have doubts about the old Celtic ship tech. If we put the PoD far enough back we can do a lot, of course. Minoans, Cartagians or Tartessians in the Caribbean would do a lot.

Although as I've mused on this, I've been thinking further on the concept of a Native American wank:

I: PoD: Something Bad happens to Europe. Norse find Vinland a more attractive option due to this.

II: Norse in Vinland interact with Americans in several ways, some of which transfers considerable tech.

III: Norse are absorbed into the American populations. Linguistic traces linger in the vocabularies of smiths, sailors and farmers who have a lot of trade-specific words taken directly from the Norse.

IV: After centuries Europe is recovering. Northeastern America launches raids to Greenland, and Iceland. Young warriors settle in Iceland. Raids expand from Iceland and go further south.

V: Considerable contact and slave (thrall) taking from Northwestern Europe leads to a continuous influx of diseases and European disease-resistant genes. Another period of chaos occurs.

VI: Europe, already somewhat slowed by the initial PoD, is facing additional pressure by raiders from the north and west. The western oceans are considered hostile. The age of exploration may never happen.

I'll have a look at the time line later, I know what I posted was a different scenario:)
 
Take a look at Charles C. Mann's 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
This is a very readable book that discusses the cultural, technological, political and agricultural nature of the Americas and Amerinds prior to colonization.

I grew up with exposure to Indians in New England, primarily Mic Macs in northern Maine and the Maritime provinces. These are the people who made first contact with Europeans in this part of the world, with exposure to early explorers and particularly Portuguese and Breton and Basque fishermen. So this is an attractive premise for me.

Assumptions:

  1. At the time of Vinland the life of Native Americans was not really hard. They fished the waters of the coastal areas as well as the lakes and rivers. They harvested shellfish from the beaches, shallows and rocks. They managed and farmed the forests. Food is abundant, varied and not a particularly great barrier to development.
  2. Culturally, they are beginning to develop away from the tribal concept towards a more national type of society. The establishment of an identity beyond the local group is growing. Social structures are becoming more regional.
  3. The Norse in Greenland are a bit more incitefull and realize that their days are numbered and abandon their settlements there, some returning to Scandinavia, others heading west to Vinland.
  4. Several settlements are established in the eastern Maritimes and New England, as far south as Cape Cod. They bring cattle and a few horses with them.
  5. They are initially welcomed by the local tribes who trade with them, teach them and learn new things from them, much as happened 500 or so years later IOTL, but soon wear out their welcome due to their aggressive nature and new diseases that spread among the native population.
  6. The Indians, linking the epidemics to the newcomers and angered by their acquisitiveness, destroy the settlements and absorb the few surviving Norse into their population. They do not link the diseases to the Norse livestock, and knowing a good thing when they see it, continue to raise cattle and horses, enabling increased trade and transport between them and their inland and southern neighbors.
  7. Through interbreeding with the surviving Norse, exposure to the cattle and the natural processes of the immune system, they develop resistance to many European diseases and grow in strength, power and influence.
  8. They adopt some European agricultural techniques and modify them to their own surroundings and tradition. Likewise they adopt useful technologies such as iron working, having seen the advantages of metal over stone, wood and bone. (we are not talking about Aztecs or Incas here, but the woodland and coastal tribes of the north east) Certain cultural and social aspects of the Norse are also adopted leading to increased concentration of populations in smaller areas.
  9. When the Europeans re-discover the new world in the 15th century and explore it in the 16th they find a land that is prosperous and populated by a vibrant and growing culture, not as technologically advanced as the Europeans, but too numerous and advanced to be considered conquerable. The Europeans are not capable of mounting a trans oceanic invasion in sufficient force to dominate the local population.
An additional aspect is that the presence of other peoples would have become part of the racial memory of the north east Indians. So they would not have been taken unaware.
 
I think the main assumption that you're going by that is incorrect is that the natives need to unify. The vast majority of tribes that I can think of all went into various confederacies on their own, each of which would originally have had a large population base with which to fight the invaders. Another common yet mistaken assumption is that the natives absolutely need European tech prior to the waves of colonization. Iron would help a bit, sure, but horses, at least among the eastern peoples, and especially guns, are far from being needed or even being useful. Before diseases kicked in and took their toll, life was much harder for colonists than natives. Many of the very early wars resulted in massacres of the colonists, and conditions were sometimes so bad that people often left the colonies in large numbers to join the nearby tribes and become assimilated by them. So the only real obstacle to native-wanks is just the diseases.
 
@Snotters Dad - you said
I grew up with exposure to Indians in New England, primarily Mic Macs in northern Maine and the Maritime provinces. These are the people who made first contact with Europeans in this part of the world, with exposure to early explorers and particularly Portuguese and Breton and Basque fishermen. So this is an attractive premise for me.

Just so I get to write or be a major cowriter :) lol It's fascinating to me too, obviously.

I think the main assumption that you're going by that is incorrect is that the natives need to unify. The vast majority of tribes that I can think of all went into various confederacies on their own, each of which would originally have had a large population base with which to fight the invaders. Another common yet mistaken assumption is that the natives absolutely need European tech prior to the waves of colonization. Iron would help a bit, sure, but horses, at least among the eastern peoples, and especially guns, are far from being needed or even being useful. Before diseases kicked in and took their toll, life was much harder for colonists than natives. Many of the very early wars resulted in massacres of the colonists, and conditions were sometimes so bad that people often left the colonies in large numbers to join the nearby tribes and become assimilated by them. So the only real obstacle to native-wanks is just the diseases.

I think you're right... Unification is probably not necessary, and harder to fit into the 5-6 centuries we might have. It was just an ideal on my part to have the first New England explorers met by a unified peoples.

Guns not being useful... guns include gunpowder, both of which I find very useful in the history of Europe and Asia. Subtract gunpowder from the world and things would be... very, very different (TL anyone? ASB, sure, but fascinating)

But when you say life is harder for the colonists before diseases kicked in... I can't agree more. This is one of the reasons Greenland was abandoned as a colony - the colonists were attempting to cling to a European lifestyle and didn't adapt fast enough. Disease crippled them, then lack of supplies from Europe finished them.

@Umbral
Despite the legends, I have doubts about the old Celtic ship tech. If we put the PoD far enough back we can do a lot, of course. Minoans, Cartagians or Tartessians in the Caribbean would do a lot.

Legends be ignored in the face of the evidence.
Plytheus (sp?) out of what is now Marseilles, found Iceland colonized, in 400 BC. Strabo doubts this, but the Norse found colonists in both Iceland and Greenland when they arrived.
Evidence from the North comes in two or three forms.
The Inuit refer to the Tunit as distinct from the Dorset. More than few arch's are beginning to recognize the Tunit as antecedents to the Dorset.
DNA evidence indicates migrations across the atlantic in succeedent waves, remnants of which exist in the far north, but more in the New England area, the most recent of which is somewhere around 1000bc to 0.

Anyway - while nothing concrete has been found - men have been sentenced to death by courts on more circumstantial evidence :)


Good enough for me, since the do have ironworking after all - and cattle. No horse, no sail, and the entry would be around 43-400AD in the form of Picts running in front of the Romans or 800-900AD in the form of Albans running from the Vikings. The second isn't very useful.



More important to me is the concept of changes in Europe - I don't have a handle on that yet.

I can write the impact on NA's with the viking influx, I've tentatively settled on Bjarni'ssighting as POD when he colonizes instead of turning back. This puts somewhere around 1500-2000 settlers in Halifax at 985, so I'm looking for a more useable pod earlier than that. -- 500-700 would've been nice, but I don't want to branch out beyond a pod in the vikings or NA's, although I could drop back to Celts, but it doesn't seem to feel quite right.

I'll probably start this timeline as soon as I can get a few stories ahead, and that'll be just as soon as I can point to a solid POD.

In the meantime, I'll be asking for help in the help forum for someone familiar with the time period in N. Europe.
 
@Umbral

Legends be ignored in the face of the evidence.
Plytheus (sp?) out of what is now Marseilles, found Iceland colonized, in 400 BC. Strabo doubts this, but the Norse found colonists in both Iceland and Greenland when they arrived.

Pytheas of Massalia went to Norway, not Iceland. That is fairly certain. Also, the people the Norse found in Iceland were Irish. That, too is well-established. The journey from Ireland to Iceland was very dangerous, but not impossible at the time.

Evidence from the North comes in two or three forms.
DNA evidence indicates migrations across the atlantic in succeedent waves, remnants of which exist in the far north, but more in the New England area, the most recent of which is somewhere around 1000bc to 0.

I've never heard of this. Sound interesting. Could I trouble you to look up some references?
 
From what I can tell, it's not been officially clarified (ie, no mainstream peer reviewed theory without serious critical evidence against it) as to where exactly Pytheus ended up at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas (yes, Iknow wikipedia isn't the best place for references, :) )

He claims it was 6 days sailing N of Britain.
He did manage to explore Ireland briefly, even Strabo gives him that much.

Strabo discredits his description of Thule for the most part, but does give him credence for a reasonability of diet there... A diet which the Norse later detailed when they arrived in Iceland, and that same diet is somewhat irreconciliable with Norway, which certainly had livestock much earlier than ~400bc but which Pytheas denotes the lack of in Thule.

Sketchy and Scanty, I know - but safe enough for an AH TL to assume, I think.


As for the other, I'll post references when and where I can find them again - I've been reading a lot and learning a lot... like Celts are Turks by blood :)

I do recall reading about a Dorset Lamp found above the Viking layer at Aux Meadows. I'll see what I can dig up again.
 
Top