A nation-state including Portugal, Galicia and León

When King John fled to Rio in 1807 with the court he elevated Brazil from colony to equal partner in kingdom. Alas abit too late.

As for Algarve it was a nominal kingdom within the Portuguese kingdom (without any seperate institutions or courts). This would bring us to Galicia and Leon would it be similar to Algarve or more like Scotland?

Algarve was an independent Arabic kingdom prior to Portuguese conquest of Silves.
My intention is to make Gallicia and Leon more like Scotland and Ireland. I don't want them to be conquered by portugal, but have somehow rebel against castille and create a United Kingdom out of mutual interest. This could, as I have said, be caused by an alternate Fernandine war, where castille attacks a smaller nation, Portugal, while having unhappy subjects. Gallicia and Leon sympathize with Portugal and are convinced by this alternate master of avis to help. After a victory against the castillian king, the three kingoms unite themselves in a federation under the leadership of Lisbon. It could even be a noble republic, in order to satisfy all the regional nobilities.
 
Something I feel neglected as of yet, is the considerations in that what this would mean to Castile... For one I'd be inclined to believe that Castile wouldn't be quite as quick out of their starting blocks in terms of colonizing the Americas, with Portugal getting a much larger share (Treaty of Tordesillas either wouldn't be made or it would be substantially different, perhaps even reversing who gets what).
 
My intention is to make Gallicia and Leon more like Scotland and Ireland. I don't want them to be conquered by portugal, but have somehow rebel against castille and create a United Kingdom out of mutual interest. This could, as I have said, be caused by an alternate Fernandine war, where castille attacks a smaller nation, Portugal, while having unhappy subjects. Gallicia and Leon sympathize with Portugal and are convinced by this alternate master of avis to help. After a victory against the castillian king, the three kingoms unite themselves in a federation under the leadership of Lisbon. It could even be a noble republic, in order to satisfy all the regional nobilities.

Sorry but that doesn't work.

Leon and Galiza have nothing to gain by doing that and Portugal lacks the means to put the nobility of those two realms on their side, also there was no tradition of Republic at the time and there would be several candidates to the throne if Ferdinand doesn't has an heir in TTL, the main contender being John of Portugal, followed by his younger brother Denis of Portugal and only then John Master of Avis. But if, for some reason, it happens considering the larger population Portugal is bound to become the main power of the three and it will replace the role of Castile in history basically the language of the other kingdoms will be replaced by Portuguese, considering everything Galician may suffer the fate of Leonese and be almost obliterated while Leonese may fare better.

Still in the end the name may be officially "Reino de Portugal, Galiza, Leão e os Algarves" but for the rest of the world it will just be Portugal.
 
Sorry but that doesn't work.

Leon and Galiza have nothing to gain by doing that and Portugal lacks the means to put the nobility of those two realms on their side, also there was no tradition of Republic at the time and there would be several candidates to the throne if Ferdinand doesn't has an heir in TTL, the main contender being John of Portugal, followed by his younger brother Denis of Portugal and only then John Master of Avis. But if, for some reason, it happens considering the larger population Portugal is bound to become the main power of the three and it will replace the role of Castile in history basically the language of the other kingdoms will be replaced by Portuguese, considering everything Galician may suffer the fate of Leonese and be almost obliterated while Leonese may fare better.

Still in the end the name may be officially "Reino de Portugal, Galiza, Leão e os Algarves" but for the rest of the world it will just be Portugal.
I know it's very unlikely, at least with the POD being the Fernandine war. What I meant, however, is if, in mid 14th century, castille faces some major political struggles or displeases her subjects by increased centralization. I don't know if it would be out of the question to have leon and galicia switch sides, however hard that might have been. Though I am a huge enthusiast for Iberian history, I guess I still have a lot to learn.
How would you make this union then? Not by conquest, but by diplomatic means?
 
I know it's very unlikely, at least with the POD being the Fernandine war. What I meant, however, is if, in mid 14th century, castille faces some major political struggles or displeases her subjects by increased centralization. I don't know if it would be out of the question to have leon and galicia switch sides, however hard that might have been. Though I am a huge enthusiast for Iberian history, I guess I still have a lot to learn.
How would you make this union then? Not by conquest, but by diplomatic means?

Like I said before change the roles of Portugal and Castile, this can be easily done by using a POD in which Count Numo Mendes stays loyal to Leon keeping Portugal in the kingdom.

Portugal and Castile were equals back then, powerful counties inside a weaker kingdom, with Portugal in Leon its very unlikely that Castile gets the upgrade to kingdom and that places them on the same position that Portugal was during Mendes, with a power count with aspirations to a crown but no way to gain it either than revolt. Make Castile win independence, but failing to gain land from Leon (basically what happened to Portugal OTL) and eventually you can see a count of Portugal get the crown and he would probably elevate Portugal to kingdom because, assuming we still expand to the south, it's lands will have more economical power than those of Leon and Galicia. And there you have it Portugal gets Leon and Galicia.

Another idea is having Portugal much more successful at the Battle of Toro and forcing the Catholic Kingns to give the King of Portugal Leon and Galicia.
 
Something I feel neglected as of yet, is the considerations in that what this would mean to Castile... For one I'd be inclined to believe that Castile wouldn't be quite as quick out of their starting blocks in terms of colonizing the Americas, with Portugal getting a much larger share (Treaty of Tordesillas either wouldn't be made or it would be substantially different, perhaps even reversing who gets what).
Well, if castille does end up in union with aragon, I still believe Portugal would be the underdog of the penninsula. What would change is the spanish attitude against the portuguese, which would be much more rivalry driven than it was on OTL.

That certainly changes the age of exploration, as I figure a treaty like tordesillas would be much harder to achieve. However, I'm planning to have Portugal play an even larger role on discovery, global trade and colonisation.
 
Like I said before change the roles of Portugal and Castile, this can be easily done by using a POD in which Count Numo Mendes stays loyal to Leon keeping Portugal in the kingdom.

Portugal and Castile were equals back then, powerful counties inside a weaker kingdom, with Portugal in Leon its very unlikely that Castile gets the upgrade to kingdom and that places them on the same position that Portugal was during Mendes, with a power count with aspirations to a crown but no way to gain it either than revolt. Make Castile win independence, but failing to gain land from Leon (basically what happened to Portugal OTL) and eventually you can see a count of Portugal get the crown and he would probably elevate Portugal to kingdom because, assuming we still expand to the south, it's lands will have more economical power than those of Leon and Galicia. And there you have it Portugal gets Leon and Galicia.

Another idea is having Portugal much more successful at the Battle of Toro and forcing the Catholic Kingns to give the King of Portugal Leon and Galicia.
I'd prefer to have the POD not too far back in the middle ages, as that changes the notion of portugal drastically. Also, it generates butterflies that I believe I'm not capable yet of addressing

I was planning to have portugal still play the role of underdog, only this time the portuguese are even more successful in their trade and colonial ventures.
 
I'd prefer to have the POD not too far back in the middle ages, as that changes the notion of portugal drastically. Also, it generates butterflies that I believe I'm not capable yet of addressing

I was planning to have portugal still play the role of underdog, only this time the portuguese are even more successful in their trade and colonial ventures.

Add Leon and Galicia and we won't be the underdog specially if we expand south from Badajoz which we could with Leon added. At worst we would be a bit weaker than Aragon-Castile on land but far stronger on the sea.
 

Lusitania

Donor
All I can state is that Portuguese history provides plenty of opportunities to do what you wish. A favorable fortune here or there will make the difference. Take for example our first king not only pushed the country's southern boundaries to the Tagus river but he also captured more than half of Galicia from his cousin. It was the capture of his son and heir at cidade Rodrigue that forced him to trade those Galician castles for his son. So while I applaud what you doing remember that a Portuguese / Galician country would be in a better position to support Leon in its fight with Castile. Just a thought.
 
All I can state is that Portuguese history provides plenty of opportunities to do what you wish. A favorable fortune here or there will make the difference. Take for example our first king not only pushed the country's southern boundaries to the Tagus river but he also captured more than half of Galicia from his cousin. It was the capture of his son and heir at cidade Rodrigue that forced him to trade those Galician castles for his son. So while I applaud what you doing remember that a Portuguese / Galician country would be in a better position to support Leon in its fight with Castile. Just a thought.
Is there any chance Portugal could bring an external power to the fight? Not the token force sent by England in OTL, but maybe a more significant help in order to actually solidify the defiant kingdoms position in face of castille?

Also, I believe a defeat would mean a big loss of prestige for castille, even though galicia and leon weren't that much significant to the overall wealth. Maybe that incentivates castille to push earlier for an union Aragon? I guess Granada would also be target of some kind of territorial compensation after the war. I'm not sure, but breaking the status quo on the penninsula might end up in an earlier spanish unification.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Is there any chance Portugal could bring an external power to the fight? Not the token force sent by England in OTL, but maybe a more significant help in order to actually solidify the defiant kingdoms position in face of castille?

Also, I believe a defeat would mean a big loss of prestige for castille, even though galicia and leon weren't that much significant to the overall wealth. Maybe that incentivates castille to push earlier for an union Aragon? I guess Granada would also be target of some kind of territorial compensation after the war. I'm not sure, but breaking the status quo on the penninsula might end up in an earlier spanish unification.

In terms with dealing with Castile, it was interesting that Portugal in the 13th and 14th century was able to deal with Castile on its own only in the succession war did England provide us with limited support. In terms of Castile prestige yes, they would be forced to play second fiddle to us and would resent it. Also I think keeping Navarra out of Castile hands and supporting Aragon's politically and military especially for first two centuries would provide the opportunity for continuation of four separate countries existing on the Peninsula (Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Navarra). As for Granada there would be some opportunities there for territory expansion there. The best bet for Portugal would be the eventual capture of both Seville and even Gibraltar thus giving us complete control of Atlantic. Leaving Castile to only be able to project its sea power from the north and from Murcia.
 
In terms with dealing with Castile, it was interesting that Portugal in the 13th and 14th century was able to deal with Castile on its own only in the succession war did England provide us with limited support. In terms of Castile prestige yes, they would be forced to play second fiddle to us and would resent it. Also I think keeping Navarra out of Castile hands and supporting Aragon's politically and military especially for first two centuries would provide the opportunity for continuation of four separate countries existing on the Peninsula (Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Navarra). As for Granada there would be some opportunities there for territory expansion there. The best bet for Portugal would be the eventual capture of both Seville and even Gibraltar thus giving us complete control of Atlantic. Leaving Castile to only be able to project its sea power from the north and from Murcia.
How would france react to this change in Iberia? They could use this display of castillian weakness to justify invading navarre or catalunia, in theory. Maybe I am overestimating the impact of the defeat om castille, but perhaps the war could be bloody and humiliating enough?

Perhaps, after the war, granada manages to gather support from the berber states to free themselves from castille and maybe recover some territory, just like they tried to do in OTL.

To be honest, I still want two major iberian powers pioneering colonization. Portugal would still have their global maritime empire focused on trade, and Spain still focuses largely on conquest and resource exploration. Only this time Spain doesn't get bully Portugal in any meaningful way.

I really need a name for this "not spain"... It feels cheeky to call it Portugal.
 

Lusitania

Donor
How would france react to this change in Iberia? They could use this display of castillian weakness to justify invading navarre or catalunia, in theory. Maybe I am overestimating the impact of the defeat om castille, but perhaps the war could be bloody and humiliating enough?

Perhaps, after the war, granada manages to gather support from the berber states to free themselves from castille and maybe recover some territory, just like they tried to do in OTL.

To be honest, I still want two major iberian powers pioneering colonization. Portugal would still have their global maritime empire focused on trade, and Spain still focuses largely on conquest and resource exploration. Only this time Spain doesn't get bully Portugal in any meaningful way.

I really need a name for this "not spain"... It feels cheeky to call it Portugal.


Well I envisioned at beggining that Navarra independence would be guaranteed by Portugal and that during it succession struggle one of Portugal princes could marry into the Navarrese royal family. In some ways become Portugal's vassal. France then would be blocked by Aragon and navarra from invading Iberian peninsula.

Granada time on the peninsula will be limited and for most part divided between Castile and Portugal. (Castile keep most of it).

As for prestige I would think that over time first with loss of Galicia, then Leon plus Poetigal reconquista expanding into Anadaludis it would come to accept larger Portugal.

In time the unification of Castile and Aragon into Spain would happen during later part of 15th century but it would be a different Spain. Where Aragon would be equal if not dominant power in Spain. Capital in Barvelona. With Italian territory could expand into Mediterranean plus go conquering into central and Andes.

The 15th century could also see "Lusitania" (sorry had to use the name) expand and establish stronger presence in North Africa even subjugate Fez and Maraquez as vassals same as Granada to Castile.
 
Well I envisioned at beggining that Navarra independence would be guaranteed by Portugal and that during it succession struggle one of Portugal princes could marry into the Navarrese royal family. In some ways become Portugal's vassal. France then would be blocked by Aragon and navarra from invading Iberian peninsula.

Granada time on the peninsula will be limited and for most part divided between Castile and Portugal. (Castile keep most of it).

As for prestige I would think that over time first with loss of Galicia, then Leon plus Poetigal reconquista expanding into Anadaludis it would come to accept larger Portugal.

In time the unification of Castile and Aragon into Spain would happen during later part of 15th century but it would be a different Spain. Where Aragon would be equal if not dominant power in Spain. Capital in Barvelona. With Italian territory could expand into Mediterranean plus go conquering into central and Andes.

The 15th century could also see "Lusitania" (sorry had to use the name) expand and establish stronger presence in North Africa even subjugate Fez and Maraquez as vassals same as Granada to Castile.
I don't know if I want Portugal getting involved in granada. Navarre joining the commonwealth works, but it makes less sense for me to have the portuguese grab some minir andalusian provinces while castille controls the whole surrounding area.

Also, I think I'll leave northern africa to Spain, considering how it became a burden for Portugal to keep. I prefer to have them do some minor conquests there and later sell or trade the possessions with the castillians, wishing to explore south and find the source of the caravans that come to morrocco.

I'm fairly skeptical of Aragon staying independent and becoming a colonial power. Not with castille and france lurking around its borders, not to say the fierce competition from the Portuguese at sea.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I don't know if I want Portugal getting involved in granada. Navarre joining the commonwealth works, but it makes less sense for me to have the portuguese grab some minir andalusian provinces while castille controls the whole surrounding area.

Also, I think I'll leave northern africa to Spain, considering how it became a burden for Portugal to keep. I prefer to have them do some minor conquests there and later sell or trade the possessions with the castillians, wishing to explore south and find the source of the caravans that come to morrocco.

I'm fairly skeptical of Aragon staying independent and becoming a colonial power. Not with castille and france lurking around its borders, not to say the fierce competition from the Portuguese at sea.

Granada at one time controlled land from Atlantic including Gibraltar. That would be what I would take.

I meant that Castile and Aragon would unite into Spain but the center of gravity of Spain would be in Barcelona the capital.

As for North Africa that would be upto you but till the Portuguese got their asses licked in 1536 they were adamant on conquering it. So a lot would need to change. As for draining it depends they would have the resources of country 3-4 as large. But again that would be my preference.
 
Would something like this butterfly away the union with castille and getting bogged down with european wars and giving full focus to expanding and reforming the overseas empire?
Whats their relation with CA to they consider them mearly a ally vs the north african moors and a buffer state vs france?
By messing the balance of power in iberia there will be a new political land scape in europe what will it look like?
 
Would something like this butterfly away the union with castille and getting bogged down with european wars and giving full focus to expanding and reforming the overseas empire?
Whats their relation with CA to they consider them mearly a ally vs the north african moors and a buffer state vs france?
By messing the balance of power in iberia there will be a new political land scape in europe what will it look like?
Would something like this butterfly away the union with castille and getting bogged down with european wars and giving full focus to expanding and reforming the overseas empire?
Whats their relation with CA to they consider them mearly a ally vs the north african moors and a buffer state vs france?
By messing the balance of power in iberia there will be a new political land scape in europe what will it look like?

If the government that takes place is indeed a kingdom, not a republic, some succession crises are bound to happen. The difference is that a foreign power is now less likely to be allowed to take the portuguesr throne without foreign intervention. Not only that but Portugal will be much better suited to participate on europeans, if necessary. However, a stronger position on the penninsula also means greater possibility of power projection over the seas and colonies, which will still be the focus of portuguese policy in this ATL.

A weaker castille doesn't mean a pushover, client-state castille. In my opinion a castillian defeat opens room for french attempts of conquest in iberia. The targets would be castille, aragon and navarre which, depending on the POD, were already ruled by the same dinasty. With the castillians losing territory to the portuguese, and the aragonese suffering from french incursions, I believe the union between the two happens earlier than OTL.

Concerning the moors, I believe Portugal would be less interested in expansion there, as now they have, uniting with leon and galicia, more land to tax and to sustain the population. I believe the it's spanish of TTL that are going to invest heavily on conquering north africa, assuming they don't get involved on too many european conflicts.

I don't know how this going to change the european theater. If portugal has support right next home it's unlikely that they would need to reach for foreign alliances like england, unless aragon or france decide to intervene in favor of castille. Overall, portugal is still isolated from many european disputes, which means any real change would take place in Iberia. Later, on the age of discovery, portugal would interact differently and more intensely with other colonizers.
 
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