A Muslim Iberia

The africa approach is likely, but the New World is not. Islamic Iberia was an erudite society, with access to greek works. They knew earth was round... but they also knew the western distance to Asia (Columbus was, plainly, compleyely out of his mind when he made his calculations; if he had not found a lucky continent on the way, they wouldhave died of hunger long before reaching China!) ´

The Spanish made the (insane) attempt for the same reason their Portuguese cousins made the not much saner African Circunvalation: The muslims blocked the easy path to Asia. A mulim Al-Andalus does not have that need, so America will go for France or England, for similar reasons than OTL Castille

It's a myth that Christian Europe thought the world was flat pre-Columbus; what they did not know was the distances to China and whether people lived south of the equator.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I am still not sure what the incentive would be to develop the ships robust enough to survive the Africa trip. It was still hideously expensive for Portugal, economical only compared to the even greater cost of the land-route. Is the rivalry between Al-Andalus and whatever emerges in the east going to be such that it's going to cost them that much in trade?

It probably depends on the intermediates; trade pretty much inevitably will have to go through Italy anyway for the time period and if the intermediates keep being at war they might try to play off the two major muslim powers.
 
It's a myth that Christian Europe thought the world was flat pre-Columbus; what they did not know was the distances to China and whether people lived south of the equator.

They did know the distance to china, too (well, within one or two thousand miles, probably). That's why no one wanted to fund Columbus -they knew that loon has miscounted the distance by several thousands miles.

He got the voyage due to raw personal charisma -he convinced Queen Isabella to fund the voyage (myth claiming she did it with her own money, pawnig her jewells), aganist the council of her experts. (but in all honesly... how much money could three ships have been, even for the budget of a 15th century nation? It's not as it they were gambling their children's inheritance it the ships dissapeared...)
 
They did know the distance to china, too (well, within one or two thousand miles, probably). That's why no one wanted to fund Columbus -they knew that loon has miscounted the distance by several thousands miles.

He got the voyage due to raw personal charisma -he convinced Queen Isabella to fund the voyage (myth claiming she did it with her own money, pawnig her jewells), aganist the council of her experts. (but in all honesly... how much money could three ships have been, even for the budget of a 15th century nation? It's not as it they were gambling their children's inheritance it the ships dissapeared...)

Which gives me another possible POD...
 
He got the voyage due to raw personal charisma -he convinced Queen Isabella to fund the voyage (myth claiming she did it with her own money, pawnig her jewells), aganist the council of her experts. (but in all honesly... how much money could three ships have been, even for the budget of a 15th century nation? It's not as it they were gambling their children's inheritance it the ships dissapeared...)
She paid his retainer fee via her own funds but not for the voyage I thought. Did he also do some surveying work during the Granada War or did I just make that up?
 
I am still not sure what the incentive would be to develop the ships robust enough to survive the Africa trip. It was still hideously expensive for Portugal, economical only compared to the even greater cost of the land-route. Is the rivalry between Al-Andalus and whatever emerges in the east going to be such that it's going to cost them that much in trade?

The main vessel of early Portuguese exploration and trade was the caravel, and it wasn't a very big vessel it had a crew of around 20 men. It's main advantage was that it used lateen sails which were developed by the Arabs. A united Iberia could certainly develop such a vessel.

There was plenty incentive. The Portuguese were able to tap gold of West Africa that previously took a trip across the Sahara, that gold was immensely important to their economy. During the years 1495-1521, the gold the Portuguese acquired annually through their African trade was equal to roughly one tenth of world gold production.

The African trade was not hideously expensive, considering the amount of profit that it brought in. Not only was there gold there but also cloth, spices, ivory, and of course slaves.
 
The main vessel of early Portuguese exploration and trade was the caravel, and it wasn't a very big vessel it had a crew of around 20 men. It's main advantage was that it used lateen sails which were developed by the Arabs. A united Iberia could certainly develop such a vessel.

There was plenty incentive. The Portuguese were able to tap gold of West Africa that previously took a trip across the Sahara, that gold was immensely important to their economy. During the years 1495-1521, the gold the Portuguese acquired annually through their African trade was equal to roughly one tenth of world gold production.

The African trade was not hideously expensive, considering the amount of profit that it brought in. Not only was there gold there but also cloth, spices, ivory, and of course slaves.
The African gold/salt/finished goods/slave trade I am familiar with, in fact it plays a huge role in the Alt-Iberia of the Raptor of Spain. But the Muslims had the land route and eventually they had Muslim states like Takrur and Mali. There was no attempt to conquer those areas until the Saadis and even then it was more about securing the route itself than sailing. So I'm saying why would they want to sail when they've got the land route? I'm not saying it wouldn't happen in some way but I think it would be a lower priority relative to OTL Iberian kingdoms.

As for expenses I was talking about circumnavigating Africa to get to India/China and the cost of the trade from SE and East Asia to Portugal.
 
The African gold/salt/finished goods/slave trade I am familiar with, in fact it plays a huge role in the Alt-Iberia of the Raptor of Spain. But the Muslims had the land route and eventually they had Muslim states like Takrur and Mali. There was no attempt to conquer those areas until the Saadis and even then it was more about securing the route itself than sailing. So I'm saying why would they want to sail when they've got the land route? I'm not saying it wouldn't happen in some way but I think it would be a lower priority relative to OTL Iberian kingdoms.

As for expenses I was talking about circumnavigating Africa to get to India/China and the cost of the trade from SE and East Asia to Portugal.

West Africa is a big enough market that the possible atlantic trade would be tapping into tradezones that Mali and Takrur wouldn't be able to reach. Basically Iberian traders would have a strong incentive to cut out the middlemen. Not to mention the islands off the coast of Africa were ideal plantations for sugar.
 
I thought he got the voyage from the Queen for performing...other services.

Well, since the same myths than say she pawned her jewels, also say the took a vow not to bath until Granada fell, and the war lasted ten years, that probably would have been going well beyond duty for a meastley gold filled continent...
 
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