a muslim country in the EU

And, Bill Cameron, I don't understand how you can think that human rights or death penalty are "trivial things" used up as excuses.


Cornelius,

Human rights and the death penalty are not trivial things. They have been used by the EU as a way to move the goal posts however.

EU membership only requires a moratorium, not an abolition, of the death penalty and many current member states didn't either announce a moratorium or abolish the death penalty until the 1990s. Abolishing the death penalty as a prerequisite for membership is part of the Lisbon Treaty, a treaty the EU has yet to ratify.

The eastern European nations who vaulted over Turkey in the EU membership queue executed people through the 1980s and most didn't abolish the penalty until the late 1990s. It wasn't just eastern European nations either, Ireland didn't abolish the death penalty until 1990 and Greece until 1993 for example. Even EU stalwarts like France and Belgium didn't do it until 1981 and 1996 respectively.

Turkey has had a moratorium since 1984, which is a better record than eight current EU members, and amended it's constitution to remove the death penalty in 2004. Turkey has met this latest goal, which wasn't really a goal at all. With Lisbon remaining on the table, only the moratorium was actually required but Turkey was told it was abolition or nothing.

Instead you have already condemned the whole EU as racist...

I have not. I merely pointed out that Europe has been toying with Turkey for over fifty years.

I've also made no accusations for why Turkey has been treated this way other than pointing to Turkey's size and religion. Suggesting that religion may play a role in Europe's decades long "Maybe" is not racist because religious affiliation does not depend on race.

If anything, Europe's aversion towards Turkey is cultural, something that is also often mistaken for race.

Finally, when you look at the condition of Spain when her membership bid was accepted, and rapidly accepted, you'll realize that the membership process is wholly subjective. Europe will bend or break the rules it holds to be so dear when the situation suits it. In that, the European Union is no different from any other government that has ever existed in human history.



Bill
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
Yes Easten Europe executed people in 80ties, just one little detail you seem to forget, they were vassalise/occupied by this state you may have heard of, called USSR.
 
It must be noted that there is SOME racism against Turkey coming in. It mostly seems to be pretty recent though. In Austria there are some parties being quite xenophobic about the Turks.
But of course I would agree with the general concensus that this isn't THE reason.

The EU hasn't been toying with Turkey for 50 years. Its just Turkey is a country in a rather strange place.
Its poor but it has always been NATO and friendly with the EU and its fore-runners. Additionally it has many hallmarks of a EU nation...but also many hallmarks of a less developed nation. Whilst the eastern europeans were pretty rich its just their being eastern block that stopped them moving closer to the rest of Europe in the years before, with this gone it was a quick job for them to get in; skipping past Turkey in 'the line'.
Its unfortunate that Turkey is muslim really as it gives people the racism (what is that actually called with religion again?) accusation to play.
 
Yes Easten Europe executed people in 80ties, just one little detail you seem to forget, they were vassalise/occupied by this state you may have heard of, called USSR.


Valdemar II,

And you've seem to forgotten that only a death penalty moratorium is necessary for EU membership and Turkey has had a moratorium since 1984.

The abolition membership requirement is part of the Lisbon Treaty, a treaty that only dates from 2007, a treaty that is still not ratified and may never be ratified, and a treaty whose requirements only Turkey has been asked to meet.

Turkey met the EEC/EU death penalty moratorium requirement in 1984. well before many current members, Turkey met the death penalty abolition requirement in 2004 even before the proposed Lisbon Treaty of 2007 which contains it was even written, and yet EU members skeptical of Turkey's membership bid still bring up the death penalty.

The death penalty hasn't been an actual reason to block Turkey's bid since 1984 when it met the still current membership requirements and the death penalty certainly hasn't been any reason at all since 2004 when Turkey exceeded the current membership requirements. The death penalty and all of the other "reasons" are only excuses, excuses that allow the EU and Europe to continue to avoid telling the truth.

As I've stated before, Europe's time is running out. The EU and Turkey are negotiating actual chapter compliance treaties now, treaties that will have to be presented to EU member nations for acceptance. There's no more room or time in which to wriggle. When the decades of "Maybes" become one specific "No" after another, the whole 50 year farce will be finally be over.


Bill
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It's part of the Copenhagen Criteria, created in 1993, 11 years before Turkey removed the death penalty from the books.
 
It's part of the Copenhagen Criteria, created in 1993, 11 years before Turkey removed the death penalty from the books.


Valdemar II,

And 9 years after Turkey imposed the moratorium that still is the only actual requirement according to the EU's own laws. The abolition requirement is part of the yet-to-be-ratified Lisbon Treaty, a treaty that was written in 2007 THREE YEARS after Turkey abolished the death penalty.

Turkey hasn't had a death penalty in five years and hasn't enforced a death penalty in 25 years, and yet Europe still brings up the death penalty in discussions of this type.

Many other nations joined with only a moratorium in place and after the Copenhagen Criteria were written. So far only Turkey and Turkey alone has been required to abolish the penalty as a pre-condition for membership.

Europe never allowed Turkey to become a full member of any of the other pre-EU organizations until those organizations were replaced by others. For fifty years Turkey has been knocking on a series of clubhouse doors only to find that, when the door finally opens, Europe has moved on to a new club leaving Turkey on the outside looking in yet again.


Bill
 
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