A Much Stronger Latin-America

You're taking for granted that success comes from White settlers - that's not true. Success came from being suited to international trade and able to attract capital from Europe. Peru and especially Bolivia were not good places for investment because they weren't really reachable until the Panama Canal was built and didn't have easily developed resources, whereas Argentina could provide tons of beef and other resources needed by British industry.

Exposure to the European capitalist system is necessary for development, but European settlers are not. One of the reasons why European powers established direct control over the interior of West Africa is because the Africans were very adept at adapting to European methods and were outcompeting European merchants.

In short: European capital & capitalism, necessary. Europeans, not. I realize it's not quite so simple, because sometimes European settlement is necessary to attract capital, for instance in the case of "empty" lands like Australia, Argentina and the American West. But if Peru had been located on the East coast of S. America, it would be a powerhouse today.

I agree with your idea, but the way you are your proposing it would mean a still worst internal colonialism after the independences. I still think the cultural hetereogenity of Ibero-America was one of the several problems to create a functional liberal nation-state, not by reason of race, of course, but by reason of motivations. Most of the indigineus peoples on the continent had systems of "colective" property of the land, leaving aside circular conceptions of time, not monetarized or lesser monetarized economies etc. Furthermore, the ad hoc created national identities where to them more foreing than the previous alliegance to spanish king. Also, the excludent approach in the construction of the new states and nations didn't help. Not recognizing the previous differences simply perpetuated them. Of course, the situation was different dependening on the countries, but some of them have even overwhelming indigenous majorities. Thus, the inflexibility of the liberal model (in my oponion the essence of the problem was not so different to the current problems in Europe integrating non-western minorities) and the lack of motivation by the part of the indigenous peoples to adopt the western model (why should them?). Some people since the independnce, including some of the libertadores, have suggested that those "savages" weren't able to understand and appreciate the benefits of liberal capitalism. Of course, there are positive data to dismiss that racist assumptiom. They understood it, and probably they didn't like it. Thus we should take into account as possibility that there are people in the world who doesn't get automatically admired by our wonderful system and prefer their way of life (it's a general reflexion, not aimed to you Abdul). The arrival of positivist ideals en the last third of the XIXth century was a catastrophe to the those indigenous peoples which were more or less still free of western impositions, we could call it the second conquest. Nevertheless abominable practices like the gamonalismo predate it. In fact, similar ideas were in the air since the late colonial period at the auspices of the Enlightenment and the bourbonic reforms. There was, for example, an obsession to put shoes and shirts to the indians which would be funny if it wouldn't hide a cultural genocide.
So the way you are wording your propossal, I only see the pressure over the indigenous peoples stressed even more than in OTL. Maybe that's the way to development, but I'm not sure if it's morally the better option.

That said, in my opinon the main "problem" was not in the indigenous peoples but, precissely, in the white elite, and that links with the next quote





Yes, it's true - it depends on the location - where there's an existing state structure, like India, China, Japan, or the Ottoman Empire, you don't need any settlers for development. If it's someplace empty like Austria, obviously you do, and if there's no stable state structure, like in many parts of Africa, you also need settlers.

There's a negative to being colonized, too - colonial powers inevitably orient colonies toward primary resource production and actively discourage industrial and commercial development. That's why I think more unity was the key - better ability to negotiate better and more advantageous relationships with Britain. More colonists would have just put the Latin states more into British orbit. If Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, and Bolivia had been one megastate, they would have been in a better position to retain economic autonomy and perhaps even industrialize rather than wasting all their resources fighting each other and leaving them vulnerable to be played off each other.

The spanish empire didn't let the better situation to create those large states, for the reasons you say about colonial powers. Although the XVIIIth century reforms did it a bit better, there were almost a total lack of economical integration in the spanish vicerroyalties, let appart between viceroyalties, and the political integration was rather laxe and there were almost not traces of economies of scale only worsened by the political fragmentation so, before and after the independence the only way to keep competitiveness was the political, social and economical compulsion, specially with the surge of new raw materials productors in the XIXth century. Furthermore, some of the elements of that famished integration were destroyed at the time of the independences. The fall of the commerce of the cochineal (?) in Central America and the decline of the Potosí in the south Andeans meant the end of the economical interactions in these regions. Also, the end of the inter-colonial fiscal transactions with the fall of the empire and the political fragmentation didn't help. There is also an interesting point. When the american rebels talked about autonomy, where all them thinking in the same thing? Because it seems that while, for example, Caracas thought in one thing, Maracaibo or Valencia thought in another thing which included autonomy respect Caracas and later the same to Caracas respect Bogotá. That's also true for the other vicerroyalties and the argentineans in the board may correct me. Since the independences, there is a constant struggle between the central power of the new states (often in the exportation port) and the other cities, with different outcomes. In Mexico, better or worse, they managed to make some kind of tacit deal after the fall of Iturbide, weakening the central power (confederal constitution), although with the lost of Central America (a peripherial region, after all). Nueva Granada (Gran Colombia) was exactly the counter-example to Mexico. Also, in my opinion, there is no way to Chile forming part of any superstate. They were almost an island (the desert in the north, the andeans in the east and the ocean in the west) with a relativelly small territory (thus, not regionalized) at the time and with homogenous populations (the mapuche lived ionly south of the Bio-Bio river) working in their own way. Had Santa Cruz managed to make El Callao the main port in southern Pacific over Valparaíso and maybe Chile would have a different history, but we need a masive POD to get it, specially to make successful the Perú-Bolivia confederation, I think. The point is that, before the independence, the only factor of union was the crown, and after the independence the new republican states often didn't managed to occupe that place and the local elites didn't have reasons to give up quota of power to the state or to other social groups (like a new bourgeoisie, for example). They rebelled against the king (when they rebelled, but that's another story) to get autonomy, specially since those capetians in Madrid and their officers in the vicerroyal capitals had worrying centralist trends. Of course the thing is a lot more complex, with changing allegiances, reactions, in different ways, to the political turmoil in metropolitan Spain, rivalries among local groups of power and struggles for the fiscal resources, fear to the social revolution, fear to the ruling elite by the part of the lower groups...

And finally three random thoughts:

-On the other hand, I find some judgements about Latin America a bit contaminated by arrogance. Some people here seems to think that Latin America is the bottom of the world or something like that, and although the argentineans and chileans say they are in el culo del mundo, there are other reasons to think about. Of course, the typical image of the continent in the european and american (I'm not sure about the later) media are the hacienda, the poverty and Juan Valdés with the donkey, and that doesn't help to have perspective. But after all,although all the problems mentioned in this thread, Latin America has been since the independence the "middle-class" in the world stage and they have done notably better than many other post-colonial spaces in other parts of the world.

- Generalizations in a such heterogeneous and big area as Latin America, with different physical and structural realities, are a problem. That includes myself.

- Peruvian cuisine is one of the best in the world and probably the more underrated. Anyway I have psychological/cultural problems to enjoy the cuy, but I'm working on it. I could live happily eating only jalea de pescado.

Cheers.
 
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As long as you all recognize the greatness of Peruvian cuisine, this thread is win even if it collapses into racism vs. no racism debates, as long as you support Peruvian cuisine in any gastronomic competetions. :p
 
Or the magnificence that is Ecuadorian cuisine.

Hey, they stole our ceviche recipes and most of their Andean plates are hybrid mutants of our culinary perfection :rolleyes:

On topic, I think the problem lies within Spanish administration, and their lack of will to force the Conquistadors to behave once the conquests where over. We could have had a society of near equals between indigenous and white, but it went and turned a full 180 on what would have been the most desired outcome.
 
As long as you all recognize the greatness of Peruvian cuisine, this thread is win even if it collapses into racism vs. no racism debates, as long as you support Peruvian cuisine in any gastronomic competetions. :p

Meh, I prefer Colombian and Cape Verdean cuisine better. ;) The fact that my supervisor is Colombian-American, not to mention that a good portion of people in my neck of the woods are Cape Verdean-Americans, has no bearing on that whatsoever.
 
-On the other hand, I find some judgements about Latin America a bit contaminated by arrogance. Some people here seems to think that Latin America is the bottom of the world or something like that, and although the argentineans and chileans say they are in el culo del mundo, there are other reasons to think about. Of course, the typical image of the continent in the european and american (I'm not sure about the later) media are the hacienda, the poverty and Juan Valdés with the donkey, and that doesn't help to have perspective. But after all,although all the problems mentioned in this thread, Latin America has been since the independence the "middle-class" in the world stage and they have done notably better than many other post-colonial spaces in other parts of the world.

It doesn't help that, when taken as a whole, Latin America has the greatest levels of income inequality in the world. Even Africa, with lower total income, has a more equitable spread.

That is when taken as a whole but it is a damning generalization.
 
If you wanted a plan in the 17th Century to make a nation an economic and governmental wreck and a laughingstock to the world you might simply note exactly how Spain actually behaved during this period.

Since it is obviously foolish to imagine Spanish colonies being better run than Spain itself it follows that Spain's former colonies in Latin America started out with a tragic legacy of (mis)government going back generations.



Valdemar II, that you have to choose the UK's least successful and least well endowed former colony almost proves AHP's point itself. Given the superior resources of almost any former Spanish colony and the greater time any of Spain's colonies have been independent it does not make, say, Mexico or Argentina or Peru look good to say they're perhaps doing better than Belize.


Niko Malaka, in fact the Pacific rim and SE Asian colonies have done vastly better than Latin America, and in a much shorter period of independence.

As for Sub-Saharan Africa, between various Cold War consequences, the very short period of independence compared to Latin America and the fact that no former group of colonies was as poorly prepared for freedom as Africa(this being not a bug but a feature of European colonial rule), the poor display since independence is hardly surprising. After all, these countries were finally escaping the colonial yoke 5-6 generations after most of Latin America.
 
It doesn't help that, when taken as a whole, Latin America has the greatest levels of income inequality in the world. Even Africa, with lower total income, has a more equitable spread.

That is when taken as a whole but it is a damning generalization.

Niko Malaka, in fact the Pacific rim and SE Asian colonies have done vastly better than Latin America, and in a much shorter period of independence.

As for Sub-Saharan Africa, between various Cold War consequences, the very short period of independence compared to Latin America and the fact that no former group of colonies was as poorly prepared for freedom as Africa(this being not a bug but a feature of European colonial rule), the poor display since independence is hardly surprising. After all, these countries were finally escaping the colonial yoke 5-6 generations after most of Latin America.

The paper I linked covers the post-independence decades of Latin America, thus the XIXth century, thus the first generations of the independent republics and compare them with other post-colonial performances all around the world. I'm sorry I can only provide you with the abstract without violating copyrights.

But still nowadays Latin America is the middle class in the world stage, as I said. I know that often that kind of things are difficult to measure but i think that human Developing Index can also be used as indicators:

The ranking.

Something more visual.

400px-UN_Human_Development_Report_2009.PNG


The inequalities are a great problem, and that's a good point. But gini index (I assume you are basing your assertion on it) doesn't speaks by itself alone. As example, USA, Mexico and China have all the three similar gini index, but we all know that there are three different realities (by the way, they all three have a higher index than, say, Mali) On the other hand, tehre a lot of african countries which I don't find data about their gini index, if someone have it I would be grateful.

And yes, some pacific nations, and some other nations, have done very well after the end of colonial rule (at least in macroeconomic terms) but I don't see how that changes my point. I didn't say (or that wasn't my intent) that Latin America did better than everyone else. But we have read in this thread people saying things like "they sunk" referring to Latin America, and that's a bit far from the reality, in my opinion. And also, as I said, they are not the bottom of the world.

With all that I don't try to whitewash nothing or to justify any colonial rule, even less suggest that there are better colonial rules than others or that we can find something positive in colonialism. In fact, in my brief apparition in this debate I was on the other side. Also, it's not my intent to present as utopic realities that aren't utopic at all and could and should be a lot better. I only wanted to give another perspective beyond the the stereotypes and the recurrent representations.

Cheers.
 
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