A Much Stronger Latin-America

Title says all, how would we be able to have Latin-America in general have a much stronger presence on the world stage? And I mean specific stuff, because I know stopping American imperialism in its tracks is important, we just have to find out exactly how to accomplish that. And obviously, to get a stronger Latin-America, you'd need to focus on the countries that had potential for industrialization and progress and whatnot. Basically, focus on making Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru, Chile, and maybe Colombia stronger as they were the countries I know had potential if not for foreign intervention. They all showed signs of wanting to expand and industrialize, and being able to if not for certain circumstances. Basically, my question would be, what PoDs would make most, if not all, of these countries have much more clout and power?

In particular Mexico would seem the most important to change as they were at America's front door and so a stronger Mexico would have the potential of preventing America from dominating the rest of the continent or the Americas in general. So, your thoughts, people?
 
You definately need to change how the Wars of Independence play out. While Latin America broke with the Spanish, it had terrible economic and demographic effects. In Venezuela a huge majority of the criollo population was killed off, while in Mexico, the peace treaty with Spain resulted in a huge economic brain drain, as the white Spaniards who left for Iberia were able to take precious metals with them. The period before the French invasion of Spain had been fairly prosperous for the colonies overall.

It's true the Bourbons had attempted to reign in the colonies compared to the neglect of the Habsburg monarchy, but trade had been liberalized in the 1780s, there were the beginnings of industry, especially textiles, in Mexico, and the economic life of the colonies seemed intertwined, as Caracas was exporting items to Veracruz to the benefit of both Mexico and Venezuela.

Not saying that Latin America needs to evolve into a variety of autonomous communities maintaining some allegiance to Madrid to survive, but the independence wars can't play out as they did IOTL, as they certainly retarded development. Avoiding the French invasion of Spain would be a start as it wouldn't create the array of political problems that created that situation, but you would need a new situation where the colonies would become independent...
 
The easiest way of doing it IMHO is changing their Independence War against Spain making them create a single country with OTL countries as states ( or 2 or 3 countries max ), this alone would make them a world power if they control the corruption a bit ( difficult but nor impossible )
 
Title says all, how would we be able to have Latin-America in general have a much stronger presence on the world stage? And I mean specific stuff, because I know stopping American imperialism in its tracks is important, we just have to find out exactly how to accomplish that. And obviously, to get a stronger Latin-America, you'd need to focus on the countries that had potential for industrialization and progress and whatnot. Basically, focus on making Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru, Chile, and maybe Colombia stronger as they were the countries I know had potential if not for foreign intervention. They all showed signs of wanting to expand and industrialize, and being able to if not for certain circumstances. Basically, my question would be, what PoDs would make most, if not all, of these countries have much more clout and power?

In particular Mexico would seem the most important to change as they were at America's front door and so a stronger Mexico would have the potential of preventing America from dominating the rest of the continent or the Americas in general. So, your thoughts, people?
Until electrification and advanced chemistry none of the Latin American countries had much potential (or desire, as they had lucrative exports already) for industrialisation.

Stopping WW1 would be great as it would a) remove the Depression which hit Latin America perhaps the hardest of anywhere and b) mean Britain/Northern Europe remained the chief financial actor rather than America (this is good because British loans were less volatile and longer term, and Britain had no native agricultural lobby to argue for screwing over Latin American production/needed the goods more).

Something that screws over America would be good news for both Argentina and Brazil in their getting potentially much more semi-skilled immigrants.

I'd argue against unity being a solution - the geography and distance involved would make the state very unrepresentative, unweildy and pathetically vulnerable to naval threats.
 
The easiest way of doing it IMHO is changing their Independence War against Spain making them create a single country with OTL countries as states ( or 2 or 3 countries max ), this alone would make them a world power if they control the corruption a bit ( difficult but nor impossible )
Yeah... not sure how possible this is. Well, I kinda know, probably closer to the impossible. There were too many differences for simply 2 or 3 to form. That, and it's not like Brazil was Spanish. In any case, I can see Mexico retaining most of Central America, but I can't see Peru incorporating the Rio Plata or even Colombia to any great extent. I'm not even sure if the River Plate region can be unified. Paraguay and Buenos Aires had many disputes long before independence, and they had even gone to war in 1811.
 
Until electrification and advanced chemistry none of the Latin American countries had much potential (or desire, as they had lucrative exports already) for industrialisation.

Stopping WW1 would be great as it would a) remove the Depression which hit Latin America perhaps the hardest of anywhere and b) mean Britain/Northern Europe remained the chief financial actor rather than America (this is good because British loans were less volatile and longer term, and Britain had no native agricultural lobby to argue for screwing over Latin American production/needed the goods more).

Something that screws over America would be good news for both Argentina and Brazil in their getting potentially much more semi-skilled immigrants.

I'd argue against unity being a solution - the geography and distance involved would make the state very unrepresentative, unweildy and pathetically vulnerable to naval threats.
Hmm, I was thinking that, save for Chile which probably did the best of these countries up to the present-day, most of these places were screwed-over or at least suffering the most in the 1800's, making a PoD that simply removes WW1 a bit late. The earlier they get a start on things the better. What hurt most of them to the extent of my limited knowledge were ruling upper-classes that were either despised by the peasants or simply could not agree with eachother. The one exception would be Paraguay, because Francia killed or severely hampered most of the criollos, but Paraguay was screwed over by foreigners and one insane megalomaniac.
 
Have a POD that anyone but Spain set up the colonies in Central or South
America. Spain didn't grow their colonies they only raped them. :)
 
Have a POD that anyone but Spain set up the colonies in Central or South
America. Spain didn't grow their colonies they only raped them. :)
Oh that reminds me. Have Britain conquer the Argentine and rule it as a colony. There would be a heavy influx of British and non-British European immigration into the area and it would eventually develop as the decades progress into a self-governing Dominion. Of course it's hard to tell if Spanish would even predominate in a British Argentina but French managed to survive in Quebec and New Brunswick. Britain can pull a deal with the locals allowing Spanish to predominate in most of the Argentine, maybe Britain creates new smaller colonies that ARE English-speaking.
 
Have a POD that anyone but Spain set up the colonies in Central or South
America. Spain didn't grow their colonies they only raped them. :)
Doesn't that defeat the point of a stronger Latin America?

I suppose you could just have a wanked Portugal instead, but you still wouldn't have Latin America as we know it.
 
Latin = Romance. France could get on this colonization in South America.
True, but in this context, Latin America essentially means Hispanic America plus Brazil.

Exactly, Venusian. Maybe I should've just been more specific and just said that the PoD must be after they gain independence from Spain.
No problem, but you could probably get away with a POD as early as the 1500s as long as it happens after the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and Incas.

Perhaps the POD could be that the Iberian Union survives and finally forms a federation type system with its American colonies?
 
Oh that reminds me. Have Britain conquer the Argentine and rule it as a colony. There would be a heavy influx of British and non-British European immigration into the area and it would eventually develop as the decades progress into a self-governing Dominion. Of course it's hard to tell if Spanish would even predominate in a British Argentina but French managed to survive in Quebec and New Brunswick. Britain can pull a deal with the locals allowing Spanish to predominate in most of the Argentine, maybe Britain creates new smaller colonies that ARE English-speaking.
Not so much a colony as that's expensive but maybe they allow Argentina to do what it wants under a form of benign neglect (seemed to work for Hong Kong) whilst cutting off the area of what would become our timline's Uruguay to run as a direct colony? Gives them pretty much what they want with an advantageous position for free trade with Argentina and guarentees them free navigation of the River Plate and control of a very nice harbour in Montevideo. Also appears to be just early enough to get in ahead of the Monrow Docrine which is a plus.
 
Oh that reminds me. Have Britain conquer the Argentine and rule it as a colony. There would be a heavy influx of British and non-British European immigration into the area and it would eventually develop as the decades progress into a self-governing Dominion. Of course it's hard to tell if Spanish would even predominate in a British Argentina but French managed to survive in Quebec and New Brunswick. Britain can pull a deal with the locals allowing Spanish to predominate in most of the Argentine, maybe Britain creates new smaller colonies that ARE English-speaking.
Actually, a colony would be a bad idea. Having BS-AS become independent (more likely as an amical protectorate, if Britain wants to retain control) was probably the better option (considering the plan was originally to make the Rio de la Plata estuary as something akin to Hong Kong). Adding more colonialism doesn't really solve things, particularly as the UK was already the dominant economic power in Latin America in the 19th century.
 
The easiest way of doing it IMHO is changing their Independence War against Spain making them create a single country with OTL countries as states ( or 2 or 3 countries max ), this alone would make them a world power if they control the corruption a bit ( difficult but nor impossible )
I strongly disagree. Said country would be almost impossible to govern given the distances, competing local interests, and utter absence of infrastructure.

The most advantageous thing for Latin America, would be stable (and hopefully non-corrupt) government. Having working governments would allow the newly independent states, to avoid the crippling cycle of civil war and insurrections which that plagued most of them post independence. With stable government, they could potentially rebuild their shattered nations, construct new infrastructure, and dare say even invest in their population.
 
Hmmm.....If I could propose a POD pre-Independence that doesn't involve the 'greatest colonizers ever that farted butterflies on everything they colonized Englishmen that could do stuff much better than those nasty Iberians', Spain did not allow any industry(pre-industrial obviously), to be founded in it's colonies. Everything produced in the colonies was shipped back to Spain, processed, or sold abroad or at home, at the price of huge amounts of efficiency. Latin America didn't lack money back then, and it's aristocracy was made up nobles essentially lounging on their seats of power thanks to the King of Spain. I think a solution would be to have an ambitious, talented, and well-read economist at the Spanish court that points out the fact to the Spanish King. Although there is a good possibility that the Spanish where in fact aware of this but did it so that the colonies remained isolated from the outside world, hence why all trading went through Spain.

There's several options:

1) The Spanish govern their colonies differently from the very start, or never get a chance to expand past the Caribbean. For example, perhaps the final Inca, Atahualpa, rather then toss the bible of the priest to the ground when presented to it, expresses more interest in the book, inquires, and converts. Hence the Inca Empire will continue to appear like a bristling porcupine that you don't want to eff around with, resulting in an independent Incan state that will most likely remain independent, unless it stagnates and is gobbled up around the 1800s like India, Southeast Asia, and China. But, the Inca Empire has proved to be dynamic in it's quick technological strides and innovative technology it had(comparatively), in it's existence of less then 100 years. Who's to say they won't be the poster child of indigenous resistance by adopting the ways of the invaders and their weapons? Then eventually, once plagues stop hitting the Inca Empire, drive out the Spanish and usher in a new era of Incan hegemony? :D

2. The Spanish don't use viceroys, Peru and Mexico are treated as though any other Spanish province. Perhaps the Incans/Aztecs make a better impression on the Spaniards and their civilization as being civilized. Perhaps their leaders convert to Catholicism and kiss the ring. Perhaps it takes an entire Spanish army to subdue each empire. Either way, the idea for this one is, rather then treat the Incans and Aztecs as colonial states, the Spanish treat them as provinces, with their own cortes, the Quechuan Corte and the Nahual Corte, perhaps even a Mayan Corte eventually. The nobility before invasion are converted, taught, and given their estates and more. This nobility rule just like a prince, duke, or count might rule back in Spain proper. How cool would it be to have El Conte de Cuzco? :D The idea with this one is that the nobility with just as much power in their own domains as any other noble in his domain have to cater to the King, and with their own interests in their finances, lobby the King to give them rights, and naturally, being the equivalent of provinces, the nobles and population are much more indifferent rather being treated as slaves, essentially, and economic development ensues.

I could elaborate with more specific PODs but I really don't have the time atm.
 
Have a POD that anyone but Spain set up the colonies in Central or South
America. Spain didn't grow their colonies they only raped them. :)
I think you fail to see the whole point of colinialism. Or better said, you see it but for some reason you identify it only with spanish colonialism. And yes, that's because colonialism is a bad thing.

Anyway I agree with your main point, probably we need a POD in colonial times, although a post-indepdence POD would be possible it would be a bit difficult.

Oh that reminds me. Have Britain conquer the Argentine and rule it as a colony. There would be a heavy influx of British and non-British European immigration into the area and it would eventually develop as the decades progress into a self-governing Dominion. Of course it's hard to tell if Spanish would even predominate in a British Argentina but French managed to survive in Quebec and New Brunswick. Britain can pull a deal with the locals allowing Spanish to predominate in most of the Argentine, maybe Britain creates new smaller colonies that ARE English-speaking.
And having british overlords and speaking english makes you automatically prosperous and developed? Not to mention how benefical was the british influence in Latin America during the XIXth century...
 
For the short time that the British occupied Cuba IOTL, they did create economic growth- they removed many of the restrictions on various trades and local industries sprang up.

The Spanish destroyed them when they got Cuba back.

Also, the British idea of viewing Latin America as consumers (while based on pre-Independence demographics) is far better than the Spanish view of them as mere servants.
 
Actually, a colony would be a bad idea. Having BS-AS become independent (more likely as an amical protectorate, if Britain wants to retain control) was probably the better option (considering the plan was originally to make the Rio de la Plata estuary as something akin to Hong Kong). Adding more colonialism doesn't really solve things, particularly as the UK was already the dominant economic power in Latin America in the 19th century.
So Bueno Aires would've been the Latin American version of Hong Kong while everything else inland would've been vassal states.
 
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