A Much Brighter Schlieffen

Agathocles

Banned
Schlieffen points out Birmarcks mistakes to the kaiser in 1888 and the urgent need to annex A-H and invade and annex Italy, in order to defeat and annex France, before it and Russia become too strong
 
Good god, are you trying to cause a large scale European war? Britain won't stand for it, and if the UK is going in, you can bet France will, if they haven't already been involved. They are still smarting for revenge.
 

JAG88

Banned
Good god, are you trying to cause a large scale European war? Britain won't stand for it, and if the UK is going in, you can bet France will, if they haven't already been involved. They are still smarting for revenge.

Yeah, an early FJ death causing the break up pf the AH Empire sounds more plausible, maybe a conference to split the carcass apart? Who gets what? War or peaceful resolution? Germany gets an Adriatic port? Minor Balkan war?
 

Agathocles

Banned
Schlieffen explains to the kaiser that Bismarck doomed Europe by not annexing Denmark in 1864, nor A-H in 1866,nor Italy and France in 1867 (during the Luxemburg crisis) to unify a mighty Germany in 1867. Leaving instead a patchwork of small and weak nations, preparing for war yet again, instead of expanding into weal Latin America, Asia, etc,
He publishes an anonimous booklet detailing Bismarck´s bloody, but unproductive wars.
The kaiser detests Bismarck and he uses the outrage caused by Schlieffen's booklet to dismiss Bismarck in disgrace. He appoints Schlieffen chancellor.
Schlieffen immediately deploys strong forces on the A-H and Swiss border and invades both countries, without declaring war, publicizing the fact that Germany unification will finally take place and that the Slavs, Romanians, Italians and Hungarians, who are treated as second rate citizens, will now become full German citizens.
Schlieffen makes brilliant use of the RRs to rapidly occupy the border between Austria and Hungary. The German navy supports landings in Croatia. German forces rapidly seize Bohemia, Silesia, Basel, Winterthur, Zurich, etc, and gain control of the vital RR lines.

German forces advance along the Franco-Swiss border, to isolate Switzerland.

During the invasion, Schlieffen offers Switzerland huge contracts for arms, boilers, machinery, etc, if it requests annexation before 24 hours, so that Germany can be finally unified. Likewise, he offers A-H huge contracts for ships in Croatia, iron ore, steel, produce, etc, if it requests annexation within 24 hours, to unify Germany, stop the fatricide and reclaim valuable Lombardy and Venetia and invade the rest of Italy.

Both A-H and Switzerland are practically untenable on the second day of the war. France is not prepared to assist Switzerland in time and cannot afford war with Prussia yet. Hungary, then Austria and finally Switzerland request annexation.

Schlieffend deploys strong forces to the Italian, Dutch and Danish borders and issues an ultimatum and offers for huge contracts to build ships, etc, if they request annexation. Denmark is terribly weak and cannot hope to stop a now invincible Germany. It complies with the ultimatum, opens its borders and requests annexation. The Netherlands also have a small army and navy and no allies, so they comply with the ultimatum. Italy assumes that the rough terrain may help to stop the invaders, so it ignores the ultimatum and mobilizes. German forces pour into Italy and sweep aside Italian forces, rapidly seizing Venetia and Lombardy and continuing to Rome, etc,

Italy capitulates after 24 days of heavy losses and only defeats.

As soon as Italy capitulates, German forces seize Luxemburg and Nice. France receives an ultimatum. the still weak French army is not match for the huge German army, attacking France in two, distant fronts. France capitulates and is annexed by Germany.

Schlieffen sends German forces to Uruguay, Nicaragua, Mexico and Thailand, which receive an ultimatum. They request US assistance. The US will take months to organize and transport expeditionary forces, so these countries are doomed and comply with the ultimatum.
 

Agathocles

Banned
Good god, are you trying to cause a large scale European war? Britain won't stand for it, and if the UK is going in, you can bet France will, if they haven't already been involved. They are still smarting for revenge.

A strong French Empire and Britain did nothing when Prussia attacked A-H, Bavaria, Saxony, Hanover, etc, in 1866.
in 1889 the French republic is still quite weak, after making outrageous payments to Prussia for declaring war in 1870. There is no way the weak republic will risk declaring war, being trounced and making outrageous payments, yet again.
Britain never gave a dam about A-H or Italy and had excellent relations with Prussia and then Germany. Russia is extremely poor in 1889 and it had done much better when allied with Prussia, than when it fought tiny Prussia in alliance with France, A-H, Sweden, etc, in the 7 years war. It is highly unlikely to mobilize fast enough and to be willing to risk another costly war, like the 7 years war, against a much more formidable germany, than tiny Prussia.
 
Yeah, an early FJ death causing the break up pf the AH Empire sounds more plausible, maybe a conference to split the carcass apart? Who gets what? War or peaceful resolution? Germany gets an Adriatic port? Minor Balkan war?

That could make an interesting timeline
 
A strong French Empire and Britain did nothing when Prussia attacked A-H, Bavaria, Saxony, Hanover, etc, in 1866.
in 1889 the French republic is still quite weak, after making outrageous payments to Prussia for declaring war in 1870. There is no way the weak republic will risk declaring war, being trounced and making outrageous payments, yet again.
Britain never gave a dam about A-H or Italy and had excellent relations with Prussia and then Germany. Russia is extremely poor in 1889 and it had done much better when allied with Prussia, than when it fought tiny Prussia in alliance with France, A-H, Sweden, etc, in the 7 years war. It is highly unlikely to mobilize fast enough and to be willing to risk another costly war, like the 7 years war, against a much more formidable germany, than tiny Prussia.

You are correct in that the UK doesn't care what happens to Italy or A-H, but they do traditionally stop anyone from becoming a dominant land power. They were already becoming concerned at the formation of the German empire. IF Germany integrates A-H, or even just Austria (Peacefully, we'll say) then they'll probably start doing things. If Germany outrightly conquers A-H and Italy and integrates them, the UK will absolutely do SOMETHING. I don't think they'll stand having Germany, A-H, Italy and Switzerland being one large entity.
 

Agathocles

Banned
Yeah, an early FJ death causing the break up pf the AH Empire sounds more plausible, maybe a conference to split the carcass apart? Who gets what? War or peaceful resolution? Germany gets an Adriatic port? Minor Balkan war?

A-H was trounced by a smaller French army in Solferino, etc, in 1859 and a smaller Prussian force in 1866, it will certainly collapse upon a surprise invasion, without war declaration and at leat a month to deploy adequately, with its lousy logistics.
The Austrian people had long wanted unification. The german congress of Frankfurt (including A-H offered Fredrick-William IV the crown of a unified german Emprie, which the imbecil rejected. It was only the monarchs (Inlcuding Bavaria's Ludwig), who opposed unification, the people long desired it.
 

Agathocles

Banned
You are correct in that the UK doesn't care what happens to Italy or A-H, but they do traditionally stop anyone from becoming a dominant land power. They were already becoming concerned at the formation of the German empire. IF Germany integrates A-H, or even just Austria (Peacefully, we'll say) then they'll probably start doing things. If Germany outrightly conquers A-H and Italy and integrates them, the UK will absolutely do SOMETHING. I don't think they'll stand having Germany, A-H, Italy and Switzerland being one large entity.

Britain had not fought Prussia despite plenty of expansion in Schleswig-Holstein, Saxony, ALsace-Lorraine, etc, It would not have even declared war on germany in 1914, had the idiotic Schlieffen plan not specified invention of Belgium, whose independence Britain guaranteed.

The British army was a joke in 1889, it could not even defeat the Afghans and tiny Boer republics, how it is going to stop German expansion in 1889?

Where was Britain's dutiful prevention of expansion policy, when the US bought Louisiana, Alaska and invaded Mexico, Cuba or the PI? The only reason Britain did not lose Canada in the 1812 war, was that the US army was unfathomably incompetent, so depsite huge forces, it was trounced repeatedly by Indians and Canadians and a handful of Britons.
 
Schlieffen explains to the kaiser that Bismarck doomed Europe by not annexing Denmark in 1864, nor A-H in 1866,nor Italy and France in 1867 (during the Luxemburg crisis) to unify a mighty Germany in 1867. Leaving instead a patchwork of small and weak nations, preparing for war yet again, instead of expanding into weal Latin America, Asia, etc,
He publishes an anonimous booklet detailing Bismarck´s bloody, but unproductive wars.
The kaiser detests Bismarck and he uses the outrage caused by Schlieffen's booklet to dismiss Bismarck in disgrace. He appoints Schlieffen chancellor.
Schlieffen immediately deploys strong forces on the A-H and Swiss border and invades both countries, without declaring war, publicizing the fact that Germany unification will finally take place and that the Slavs, Romanians, Italians and Hungarians, who are treated as second rate citizens, will now become full German citizens.
Schlieffen makes brilliant use of the RRs to rapidly occupy the border between Austria and Hungary. The German navy supports landings in Croatia. German forces rapidly seize Bohemia, Silesia, Basel, Winterthur, Zurich, etc, and gain control of the vital RR lines.

German forces advance along the Franco-Swiss border, to isolate Switzerland.

During the invasion, Schlieffen offers Switzerland huge contracts for arms, boilers, machinery, etc, if it requests annexation before 24 hours, so that Germany can be finally unified. Likewise, he offers A-H huge contracts for ships in Croatia, iron ore, steel, produce, etc, if it requests annexation within 24 hours, to unify Germany, stop the fatricide and reclaim valuable Lombardy and Venetia and invade the rest of Italy.

Both A-H and Switzerland are practically untenable on the second day of the war. France is not prepared to assist Switzerland in time and cannot afford war with Prussia yet. Hungary, then Austria and finally Switzerland request annexation.

Schlieffend deploys strong forces to the Italian, Dutch and Danish borders and issues an ultimatum and offers for huge contracts to build ships, etc, if they request annexation. Denmark is terribly weak and cannot hope to stop a now invincible Germany. It complies with the ultimatum, opens its borders and requests annexation. The Netherlands also have a small army and navy and no allies, so they comply with the ultimatum. Italy assumes that the rough terrain may help to stop the invaders, so it ignores the ultimatum and mobilizes. German forces pour into Italy and sweep aside Italian forces, rapidly seizing Venetia and Lombardy and continuing to Rome, etc,

Italy capitulates after 24 days of heavy losses and only defeats.

As soon as Italy capitulates, German forces seize Luxemburg and Nice. France receives an ultimatum. the still weak French army is not match for the huge German army, attacking France in two, distant fronts. France capitulates and is annexed by Germany.

Schlieffen sends German forces to Uruguay, Nicaragua, Mexico and Thailand, which receive an ultimatum. They request US assistance. The US will take months to organize and transport expeditionary forces, so these countries are doomed and comply with the ultimatum.


That's very...............................................ambitious.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
I am sure there is one of the multiverse clones where Prussia/Germany would be able to annexionate France. But believe me if I said that we don't live on it. You would have an massive insurrection on your hands. With Napoleon the Small having surrendered the army and what was left of France in civil war Paris resisted alone. The Prussians trying annexation would literally mean one hundred years of war.
 

Agathocles

Banned
Did not Britain allow Germany to invade France unchallenged in 1870-71? expand into several African colonies in 1885? Did not Britain allow France to invade Algeria in 1830 (just 15 years after the collapse of the first empire)? Russia to take Finland and Estonia from Sweden and Ukraine, Latvia, etc, from Poland-Lithuania? and allow Germany, Austria and Russia to partition Poland, so that in little over a century huge Poland Lithuania and much of Sweden became part of endless Russia?

Even the Crimean war would never have involved British forces, had not the much larger French and Turkish armies been involved.

In 1889 Germany has a much larger and more modern army than France. The differential between German and French forces in quality and quantity is much greater than in 1870. The differential between German and A-H forces in 1889 is much greater than in 1866. It is truly surprising that Schlieffen and the kaiser kept the extremely expensive and powerful army completely unproductive, while France and Russia rapidly became stronger and A-H (Germany's only ally and the cause of WW I and the German debacle) rapidly decayed.
 

Agathocles

Banned
I am sure there is one of the multiverse clones where Prussia/Germany would be able to annexionate France. But believe me if I said that we don't live on it. You would have an massive insurrection on your hands. With Napoleon the Small having surrendered the army and what was left of France in civil war Paris resisted alone. The Prussians trying annexation would literally mean one hundred years of war.

As soon as German forces (including A-H, French, Italian, etc,) rapidly occupy Mexico, Uruguay, etc, and a mighty European Bank founded by Schlieffen unleashes industrial expansion, massive shipyard and merchant ship production, RR construction in the colonies, etc, and there is plenty of money to go around and workers' conditions greatly improve, the communists, etc, will have no followers.

The Dutch are prouder and tougher than the French, yet they adapted quite well during Napoleonic and Nazi times and even during Spanish rule, until they were forced to become Catholics and rebelled. The French adapted quite well to life in 1941. The role of the resistance is really quite insignificant, blown out of proportion in movies, like the role of a handful English pirates against massive Spanish trade.
 
I think you're missing a few caveats.
Did not Britain allow Germany to invade France unchallenged in 1870-71?
They did, on the condition that Germany not annex the entirety of the damn country. If they did pull a Hitler, Britain would be yelling loud at them to give back all the possessions they took from France, and even the Russians would be concerned over this.
expand into several African colonies in 1885?
"Several" is pushing it when compared to what Britain, France, even Belgium got. Besides maybe Tanzania, the German colonial empire didn't ammount to anything too profitable, mostly just outposts from which to possibly expand later.
Did not Britain allow France to invade Algeria in 1830 (just 15 years after the collapse of the first empire)?
They did, under the (more or less correct) assumption that France's control over the Barbary coast would diminish pirate activity in that area, which had been causing too much trouble for local merchants for centuries.
Russia to take Finland and Estonia from Sweden and Ukraine, Latvia, etc, from Poland-Lithuania? and allow Germany, Austria and Russia to partition Poland, so that in little over a century huge Poland Lithuania and much of Sweden became part of endless Russia?
Britain did protest over the partition of Poland, actually. The British public, especially the liberals, were also quite willing to support the Polish rebellions in the 19th century, but the leadership in Westminster was too worried about regional destabilization to let that happen. It should also be noted that Britain didn't have too proper means of extending control to that area of Europe.
 
Schlieffen explains to the kaiser that Bismarck doomed Europe by not annexing Denmark in 1864, nor A-H in 1866,nor Italy and France in 1867 (during the Luxemburg crisis) to unify a mighty Germany in 1867. Leaving instead a patchwork of small and weak nations, preparing for war yet again, instead of expanding into weal Latin America, Asia, etc,
He publishes an anonimous booklet detailing Bismarck´s bloody, but unproductive wars.
The kaiser detests Bismarck and he uses the outrage caused by Schlieffen's booklet to dismiss Bismarck in disgrace. He appoints Schlieffen chancellor.
Schlieffen immediately deploys strong forces on the A-H and Swiss border and invades both countries, without declaring war, publicizing the fact that Germany unification will finally take place and that the Slavs, Romanians, Italians and Hungarians, who are treated as second rate citizens, will now become full German citizens.
Schlieffen makes brilliant use of the RRs to rapidly occupy the border between Austria and Hungary. The German navy supports landings in Croatia. German forces rapidly seize Bohemia, Silesia, Basel, Winterthur, Zurich, etc, and gain control of the vital RR lines.

German forces advance along the Franco-Swiss border, to isolate Switzerland.

During the invasion, Schlieffen offers Switzerland huge contracts for arms, boilers, machinery, etc, if it requests annexation before 24 hours, so that Germany can be finally unified. Likewise, he offers A-H huge contracts for ships in Croatia, iron ore, steel, produce, etc, if it requests annexation within 24 hours, to unify Germany, stop the fatricide and reclaim valuable Lombardy and Venetia and invade the rest of Italy.

Both A-H and Switzerland are practically untenable on the second day of the war. France is not prepared to assist Switzerland in time and cannot afford war with Prussia yet. Hungary, then Austria and finally Switzerland request annexation.

Schlieffend deploys strong forces to the Italian, Dutch and Danish borders and issues an ultimatum and offers for huge contracts to build ships, etc, if they request annexation. Denmark is terribly weak and cannot hope to stop a now invincible Germany. It complies with the ultimatum, opens its borders and requests annexation. The Netherlands also have a small army and navy and no allies, so they comply with the ultimatum. Italy assumes that the rough terrain may help to stop the invaders, so it ignores the ultimatum and mobilizes. German forces pour into Italy and sweep aside Italian forces, rapidly seizing Venetia and Lombardy and continuing to Rome, etc,

Italy capitulates after 24 days of heavy losses and only defeats.

As soon as Italy capitulates, German forces seize Luxemburg and Nice. France receives an ultimatum. the still weak French army is not match for the huge German army, attacking France in two, distant fronts. France capitulates and is annexed by Germany.

Schlieffen sends German forces to Uruguay, Nicaragua, Mexico and Thailand, which receive an ultimatum. They request US assistance. The US will take months to organize and transport expeditionary forces, so these countries are doomed and comply with the ultimatum.

Er....why and how would Germany annex France, Italy, and all of these other countries? I doubt that the populations of these countries would actually be happy with getting annexed. Wouldn't the German Army be overstretched dealing with all the rebellions that they would have to face, let alone the fighting to annex everywhere? Germany isn't invincible.
 
Where was Britain's dutiful prevention of expansion policy, when the US bought Louisiana, Alaska and invaded Mexico, Cuba or the PI? The only reason Britain did not lose Canada in the 1812 war, was that the US army was unfathomably incompetent, so depsite huge forces, it was trounced repeatedly by Indians and Canadians and a handful of Britons.

I see, that's my fault. The UK didn't like anyone in Europe to get too uppity.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
As soon as German forces (including A-H, French, Italian, etc,) rapidly occupy Mexico, Uruguay, etc, and a mighty European Bank founded by Schlieffen unleashes industrial expansion, massive shipyard and merchant ship production, RR construction in the colonies, etc, and there is plenty of money to go around and workers' conditions greatly improve, the communists, etc, will have no followers.

The Dutch are prouder and tougher than the French, yet they adapted quite well during Napoleonic and Nazi times and even during Spanish rule, until they were forced to become Catholics and rebelled. The French adapted quite well to life in 1941. The role of the resistance is really quite insignificant, blown out of proportion in movies, like the role of a handful English pirates against massive Spanish trade.
We will have to agree on disagree.
chartres-history-path-jean-moulin-rose.jpg
 
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