A most dark matter: demographics of expanded Lebensraum

Eurofed

Banned
As you may or may not have noticed and care to follow, I've started an Axis victory TL and a central topic of its development where I may need some reasoned advice and educated opinion, no matter how dark and gritty the matter, is the demographic issues of a Lebensraum that is expanded to Yugoslavia, Slovakia, and the Arab world besides the usual Eastern Europe victims.

Some basic assumptions of the TL (go here for the full version):

With the single exception of the Jews and Rom, the Nazifascists very soon after the war adopt the ironclad rule that apart from the people they kill to quell rebellions, they only exterminate or deport the natives from the lands they are fairly sure they can swiftly repopulate with their own settlers (and a minority of forcefully-Aryanized racially-suitable locals). In the meanwhile, they exploit the natives as an enslaved workforce.

Fascist Europe gets bound into such a tight "Dark EU on steroids" confederal political, economic, and military bond that relatively soon after the war, Lebensraum becomes a Pan-Western European colonization effort. Italians, French, and Iberians are welcome to settle in Eastern Europe, while Germans, French, and Iberians are welcome to settle in the Western Balkans and in the Arab world.

Lebensraum colonization proceeds in a rough concentric wave pattern, from Czechia-Western Poland, coastal Maghreb, and northern-western Yugoslavia onward, and Slav and Arab areas get similar priority.

Despite the hellish regime enforced in the colonial areas, Fascist Europe is an industrialized superpower, less economically and technologically efficient than the Free World but more so than the USSR, which treats loyal Aryan subjects with a relative light hand, comparable to pre-war Germany and Italy or a more wealthy and efficient post-Stalinist Soviet Union. So OTL demographic trends for 20th-century industrialized countries mostly apply. The regime does enforce strong natalist policies, such as strong subsidies and social benefits for fertile couples, extensive daycare networks, and the like. But extreme practices like mandatory pregnancies and birthing factories are not really feasible except in special cases.

Fascist Europe and Japan control Africa and western Eurasia up to the Yenisei-Xinjiang-Indus line, and eastern Eurasia except the Indian subcontinent, respectively, while the USA (which joined with Canada, Australia, and New Zealand into a confederation), Latin America, Britain, and India make up the Free World. The two blocs are locked into a Cold War and MAD nuclear stalemate. The Free World smuggles what support it can to the plentiful Slav, Arab, African, and Asian rebels to Axis tyranny, but there is not much else it can do.

Given these premises, how do you expect that Lebensraum would proceed, which nations, and when, would get extinguished as meaningful ethnic and cultural entities and replaced by Western European settlers, down the decades of Nazi rule ? I'd be quite thankful if you could frame your argument in a decade-by-decade basis, so your advice remains useful regardless of whether the totalitarian bloc suffers a collapse in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or endures to present times.

So far, I tentatively assumed that up to the early 60s, Czechia, Poland, Baltic states, Belarus, Yugoslavia, Albania, Slovakia, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya would get assimilated, while Ukraine and Egypt would do so in the 60s and early-mid 70s. But I'm quite uncertain about the rest. Would the decline of demographic growth in Fascist Europe eventually bring the engines of genocide to an halt, and if so, when, and how far the tide of ethnic cleansing and resettlement would spread ? Or would they keep the demographic potential to gobble ever-increasing bits of Russia and the Middle East up to present times ? Would they eventually start spreading their nasty job to bits of Sub-Saharan Africa ?

I'd be doubly thankful if you could also give some reasoned and educated advice on the demographic effects of decades-long Japanese rule on East Asia and South East Asia.
 
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I quibble over the first world status of Germany. The kind of regime the Nazi’s imposed is not only highly negative as far as economic growth in concerned it is actively harmful to the economy living standards dropped .during Hitler’s rule, Mussolini fuck-ups also weakened Italy economically as did Franco in Spain (although Franco’s Spain was an old school Spanish military junta not a modern fascist state) They couldn’t wind up worse than U.S.S.R as the Soviet economy had room to develop and wasn’t planning to run itself as a modern day Sparta, with an increasingly illiterate population of agrarian warrior caste Germans and helots to do any manual labour.

As for Eastern Europe, Poland's population is decimated, their country is too small, too close to Germany and it's people have nowhere to run to. The Czechs do a bit better as do the Croatians. The Serbs are subject to Croat genocide but I don’t see the Germans really caring to a great degree about what happens in the Balkans that’ll be left to Italy.

Belarus and Western Ukraine are colonized, and the cites of central Ukraine are razed but the country side/ villages aren’t decimated the same degree. The fast breeding peasants are kept in line harshly but are too useful as a labour pool to be exterminated. Even so millions will die. As for Russia it’s simply too big to effectively hold a Ural boundary that’s an ASB fantasy that even Hitler give up on early. They’ll hold the Leningrad, Moscow, Astrakhan line. Russians Ukrainians, and Byelorussia’s will flee east into the free zones to the east, as will many Caucasians who the Germans in their typical crass master race BS fashion treat like dirt. Everything up to the Urals is a kind of free-fire zone and the Germans will launch the raiders from time to time. East of the Urals a well the massive influx of refugees mostly peasants will be settled in virgin lands in Central Asia and Siberia. I don’t see Central Asia attempting to secede if even the smallest of a Soviet/Russian government remains. The Central Asians proved surprisingly loyal to the Union when push came to shove.

Japan’s militarist government was just as bad as the Nazi's if not worse. They’ll struggle to hold even China. The Han Chinese vastly outnumber the Japanese, China isn’t as divided as I India is high and regards the Japanese as jumped up barbarians. So they wont quit fighting. Japan was crazy brutal and stupid in it’s deals In occupied territories. It’ll need to spend all it’s effort hold what it gained OTL never mind anything else. They may go for Siberia east of lake Baikal I doubt they’ll try to press further. The logistics are against it.

Africa and the Middle East are an endless bloody mess for the Axis. I assume that Turkey and Iran will be hostile to the Axis, that would cause them major problems. As will German efforts to keep their increasingly restive ''allies'' in Europe in line.
 
Not sure what I can say. A couple notes on the Free World, though...

Incidentally, the Sahara makes a rather good barrier, to the point that I think the Free World can, at minimum, hold onto West Africa below the Sahara, relying on Brazil-Dakar convoys. Not sure where the lines would be in East and/or Central Africa.

I don't think the US would outright absorb Canada or Australia; more likely, they (and New Zealand) stay independent, but very strongly tied to the US. French Polynesia ends up becoming American-dominated, though part of a Free French state (if one survives).
/tangent
 
If I recall correctly, tne SS had a Lebensborn program, which encouraged and subsidized procreation of "Aryan" children. At the end of the war, GI's were amazed at the number of young kids running around in Germany. If it were continued, these kinds of programs would presumably fill up parts of Poland and the Baltic states fairly quickly
 

Eurofed

Banned
Incidentally, the Sahara makes a rather good barrier, to the point that I think the Free World can, at minimum, hold onto West Africa below the Sahara, relying on Brazil-Dakar convoys. Not sure where the lines would be in East and/or Central Africa.

ITTL America stays neutral during the war and the Axis delivers a crushing defeat to Britain (it loses the Med, the Middle East, northern Africa, and the battle of the Atlantic, and German-Italian subs blockade the British Isles), so that it is forced to abandon the entirety of Africa and Eurasia but India to the Axis powers.

I don't think the US would outright absorb Canada or Australia; more likely, they (and New Zealand) stay independent, but very strongly tied to the US. French Polynesia ends up becoming American-dominated, though part of a Free French state (if one survives).

For the sake of brevity, I simplified TL events. The USA, Canada, and Anzus form a confederation soon after the war, and progress to full political union after a generation or two, and the confederation immediately proceeds to annex all the European colonies in the Americas and the Pacific. Independence is overrated when the totalitarian powers control half of the world.

[DBWI mode]
Free French ? What's that, a dialect ? France has been one of the most loyal and reliable members of the New European Order since it joined the Axis in late 1940, after the German-Italian forces stormed Malta and Egypt.
[/DBWI mode]

Seriously, in a world with an early Axis decisive victory, De Gaulle would be a pathetic failure. No one in Washington is going to give him government-in-exile recognition. IOTL they didn't even recognize Free France up to Torch.
 
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If I recall correctly, tne SS had a Lebensborn program, which encouraged and subsidized procreation of "Aryan" children. At the end of the war, GI's were amazed at the number of young kids running around in Germany. If it were continued, these kinds of programs would presumably fill up parts of Poland and the Baltic states fairly quickly
__________________

the program was that any SS officer could have a child with any unmarried woman (or just have "fun" with her), and there would be no "trouble" from the local authorities and the state would raise the children no questions asked.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I have full faith the Nazis will run the economy into the ground.

TTL is a best case scenario for the Axis. They do face some economic trouble after the war. But when Adolf buys the mausoleum soon after the glorious victory, the moderates take over, marginalize the Himmler loonies, and they manage the economy and the education system decently. They keep on with the Lebensraum out of imperialistic greed and ruthless pragmatism. Plus, they have the resources of whole Africa and half of Eurasia at their beck and call, it's difficult to screw the economy with that kind of resource pool.
 
I don't see how lebensraum could be considered pragmatic. It seems like you would run out of Germans with all that resettling. If you are talking about liquidation similar to the Jewish holocaust then very quickly Eastern Europe will lose economic value. A smart german would keep the slavs as consumers rather than liquidating them to set up farms where German women breed like animals.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I quibble over the first world status of Germany. The kind of regime the Nazi’s imposed is not only highly negative as far as economic growth in concerned it is actively harmful to the economy living standards dropped .during Hitler’s rule, Mussolini fuck-ups also weakened Italy economically as did Franco in Spain (although Franco’s Spain was an old school Spanish military junta not a modern fascist state) They couldn’t wind up worse than U.S.S.R as the Soviet economy had room to develop and wasn’t planning to run itself as a modern day Sparta, with an increasingly illiterate population of agrarian warrior caste Germans and helots to do any manual labour.

See my answer to Mowque. Anyway, I would question that Mussolini really weakened Italian economy overmuch, or Franco the Spanish one, at the net of the vast damage that the Civil War did. As for the harm that Nazi did to the economy, most of it came from rushed rearmament.

As for Eastern Europe, Poland's population is decimated, their country is too small, too close to Germany and it's people have nowhere to run to. The Czechs do a bit better as do the Croatians. The Serbs are subject to Croat genocide but I don’t see the Germans really caring to a great degree about what happens in the Balkans that’ll be left to Italy.

ITTL part of the PoD ensures a stronger Italy, and an earlier and tighter German-Italian partnership. As a consequence, Italy embraces the Lebensraum idea, and gets to apply it in the Western Balkans and in the Arab world. The Czechs do a bit better only insomuch that more of them than of Poles are deemed suitable for Germanization.

Belarus and Western Ukraine are colonized, and the cites of central Ukraine are razed but the country side/ villages aren’t decimated the same degree. The fast breeding peasants are kept in line harshly but are too useful as a labour pool to be exterminated. Even so millions will die. As for Russia it’s simply too big to effectively hold a Ural boundary that’s an ASB fantasy that even Hitler give up on early. They’ll hold the Leningrad, Moscow, Astrakhan line. Russians Ukrainians, and Byelorussia’s will flee east into the free zones to the east, as will many Caucasians who the Germans in their typical crass master race BS fashion treat like dirt. Everything up to the Urals is a kind of free-fire zone and the Germans will launch the raiders from time to time. East of the Urals a well the massive influx of refugees mostly peasants will be settled in virgin lands in Central Asia and Siberia. I don’t see Central Asia attempting to secede if even the smallest of a Soviet/Russian government remains. The Central Asians proved surprisingly loyal to the Union when push came to shove.

Interesting, although ITTL the Axis is stronger and eventually gets to expand all the way to Siberia and Central Asia.

Japan’s militarist government was just as bad as the Nazi's if not worse. They’ll struggle to hold even China. The Han Chinese vastly outnumber the Japanese, China isn’t as divided as I India is high and regards the Japanese as jumped up barbarians. So they wont quit fighting. Japan was crazy brutal and stupid in it’s deals In occupied territories. It’ll need to spend all it’s effort hold what it gained OTL never mind anything else. They may go for Siberia east of lake Baikal I doubt they’ll try to press further. The logistics are against it.

ITTL the Yenisei-Xinjiang line becomes the final border between Fascict Europe and the Japanese Empire at the end of the '40s. The USSR is eventually wiped out.

Africa and the Middle East are an endless bloody mess for the Axis. I assume that Turkey and Iran will be hostile to the Axis, that would cause them major problems. As will German efforts to keep their increasingly restive ''allies'' in Europe in line.

Colonial territories do become an huge endless bloody mess for Fascist Europe, but don't overvalue the (largely non-existent) rebelliousness of Western Europe in a world where fascism wins a decisive victory. Italy, France, Spain, Portugal all got homebrew fascist regimes with a solid following like Germany, and while the Nazi are gonna screw Eastern Europe, Western Europe is gonna get a cozy standing within their empire. Much of the rebellousness the USSR got from its own vassals came from the fact that Communists screwed the economy rather bad.
 
OTL the Germans had several programs to increase the "aryan" population. One was the SS Lebensborn program which involved selected SS men and volunteer Mädchen with the babies being raised in SS facilities. This would be relatively limited in numbers primarily for producing SS men. The Germans also snatched babies/young children from occupied areas who met "aryan" criteria and adopted them out as Germans. Combine this with very strong natalist programs and you get a rapidly growing population.

The local populations in the areas designated for Lebensraum would be reduced by starvation, overwork, or outright extermination to the level needed for slave labor, and slave reproduction would be limited by forced abortion or sterilization (experiments on this were part of the medical experiments at KZLagers).
 
I'd look at the birth rates in the US during its rapid expansion during the 1800s. That's probably a reasonable upper bound on what you could expect from a Germany that has it's crowding pressures removed and is trying to populate its new lebensraum..
 

Eurofed

Banned
I don't see how lebensraum could be considered pragmatic. It seems like you would run out of Germans with all that resettling. If you are talking about liquidation similar to the Jewish holocaust then very quickly Eastern Europe will lose economic value. A smart german would keep the slavs as consumers rather than liquidating them to set up farms where German women breed like animals.

Precisely because they soon realize the economic value problem you point out, they embrace the policy that they keep Slavs and Arabs like exploited workforce, then they Lebensraum them when they get enough Western European settlers (the colonization relatively soon becomes a Pan-Aryan effort) to replace them, with some Aryanized natives trown into the mix.

As for why they do so, it's because it offers greater long-term advantages: dead-and-replaced-by-settlers or assimilated natives don't rebel, don't require an extensive repression apparatus, their descendants don't stage secession movements or return to claim back the land, and settlers or assimilated natives are a more productive and reliable workforce than un-assimilated enslaved natives, and they also provide manpower for the army. The more rebellions they face in their empire, the more they get convinced of the usefulness of this policy.

As for they don't do the really smart thing and try to win the hearts and minds of their subjects, well, the pragmatists take over once the Hitler and Himmler folks already messed up things by starting the brutality-rebellion-repression cycle and made the soft approach unworkable.

In metanarrative terms, mine is not the kind of TL which flinches from the consequences of an Axis victory by making the Nazi have a timely change of heart about the Jews and the Slavs. On the contrary, Italian fascists embrace Lebensraum and they get it expanded to Yugoslavia and the Arab world. They are smarter, luckier, more efficient, and pragmatic Nazi, but they don't get a change of heart.
 
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Another problem I see happening from this idea is the lack of educated people to staff and administrate such a huge empire. Prior successful empires all attempted to use existing local educated elites to help run their empire. In the modern world this is especially important since modern life requires a great number of engineers, technicians, and bureaucrats. It's not like you can just empty the best homes in Moscow and fill them with germans gathered from the street. Who will run their sewer systems, power plants, and train stations?

You can bash the Soviet economic system all you want, but at least everyone got an education. They produced probably record numbers of nuclear engineers, chemists, and architects from absolutely every ethnic group in their empire. Preexisting educated people (that proved totally loyal to the party) were also taken advantage of. Now even that education system had problems because they did not have good standards for their schools, but compare that to your Nazi system. The demands will be so great that they will have to build many more schools, and start pumping out degrees faster than ever.

I see it more as the situation in post-colonial africa. There will not be enough educated people to properly administer the newly acquired empire.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Another problem I see happening from this idea is the lack of educated people to staff and administrate such a huge empire. Prior successful empires all attempted to use existing local educated elites to help run their empire. In the modern world this is especially important since modern life requires a great number of engineers, technicians, and bureaucrats. It's not like you can just empty the best homes in Moscow and fill them with germans gathered from the street. Who will run their sewer systems, power plants, and train stations?

You can bash the Soviet economic system all you want, but at least everyone got an education. They produced probably record numbers of nuclear engineers, chemists, and architects from absolutely every ethnic group in their empire. Preexisting educated people (that proved totally loyal to the party) were also taken advantage of. Now even that education system had problems because they did not have good standards for their schools, but compare that to your Nazi system. The demands will be so great that they will have to build many more schools, and start pumping out degrees faster than ever.

I see it more as the situation in post-colonial africa. There will not be enough educated people to properly administer the newly acquired empire.

I see the point of your argument. I just point out that ITTL the Nazi pretty soon mold "Aryan" continental Europe into a cohesive "Dark EU" entity, and that already is a pretty sizable demographic pool to draw technicians and bureaucrats from.
 
If you are interested in these issues, I read Mark Mazower's "Hitler's Empire" about a year ago and found it very good. Lots of good detail on how Hitler actually ruled and planned to rule Europe.

As for demographics two thoughts, first is that do pro-natalist policies in a non-regimented society work? I am sure they have an impact on the margins, but if you look at birthrates in current industrial societies the key factors for higher population growth seem to be things like religious belief, employment opportunities for women and govt. sponsored child care. A future Nazi Germany even with strong pro-natalist policies might have a lower birth-rate than OTL Germany.

Secondly would Germans move to the newly conquered East? In OTL from the mid-19th century there was steady migration of Germans from the lightly populated East to the more densely populated West where there were higher paying industrial and service jobs. In mid-20th century Germany farm work was not well renumerated. It is not population density that drives migration but economic opportunity and life-style. Being a farmer in occupied Central Poland is less likely to appeal than being an machinist in the Ruhr.
 
I see the point of your argument. I just point out that ITTL the Nazi pretty soon mold "Aryan" continental Europe into a cohesive "Dark EU" entity, and that already is a pretty sizable demographic pool to draw technicians and bureaucrats from.

Well will that demographic pool be willing to put up with their home towns being repopulated with Germans.

Either Aryan is a flexible term given to any local who is politically reliable, similar to the Soviet idea. Or it is held to Nazi specifics and is basically inflexible. It seems to me that under the Nazis teachers that were unreliable were executed, suspected homosexuals no matter their place in government were eliminated. This leads to reducing the talent pool of possible leaders.

Russia which had been ideologically purged to great ill effect by Stalin, will now go under a second purge under the Nazis. The Nazis will have to fill those many basic technocratic positions that were poorly filled under Stalin with imported Aryan rulers. Infrastructure will decay, the country will be even poorer than before. That means bad consumers, bad workers, which all equals to expense for the mother country.

I see a lebensraum project failing miserably. The Soviets lasted til 1991, I give the Nazis 10 years at most without major structural changes.
 
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