A Morgenthau type plan for the defeated CSA in TL-191

What if the North decided on a Morgenthau type plan for the defeated CSA?Its my understanding that the plan was seriously considered for the former Nazi Germany OTL but was abandoned because of the fear of Soviet Russia expanding further into Central Europe. Since there is no competing power in North America that the USA would have to fear could it feasibly leave the South in ruins and allow only agricultural work in the future?
 
What if the North decided on a Morgenthau type plan for the defeated CSA?Its my understanding that the plan was seriously considered for the former Nazi Germany OTL but was abandoned because of the fear of Soviet Russia expanding further into Central Europe. Since there is no competing power in North America that the USA would have to fear could it feasibly leave the South in ruins and allow only agricultural work in the future?

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the USA want to re-absorb the Confederacy?

If that's the cause, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to completely impoverish their own territory. ;)

I suppose if any rump CSA was allowed to survive, then there'd be greater chance of some sort of ATL Morgenthau Plan being implemented.
 
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the USA want to re-absorb the Confederacy?

:( Yes this is my understanding of whats going to happen. I havent read the spoiler thread on the final book but you kind of pick things up here and there. I'm very much in support of the survival of a rump CSA .Certainly de-militarized and perhaps truncated by the creation of a black nation. To make the series a true ATL Turtledove shouldn't put things back together they way they were pre- 1861.
 
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What if the North decided on a Morgenthau type plan for the defeated CSA?Its my understanding that the plan was seriously considered for the former Nazi Germany OTL but was abandoned because of the fear of Soviet Russia expanding further into Central Europe. Since there is no competing power in North America that the USA would have to fear could it feasibly leave the South in ruins and allow only agricultural work in the future?

I think the Morgenthau plan was abandoned for two reasons: for one, it was considered impractical to turn Germany into a rural country since it was already back then too densely populated, and things got even worse with the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe. As a result, some fifty percent of the population would have had to starve or would have to be otherwise exterminated, which was considered impractical (even though some of the Allies really had no ethical concerns about that). The other point was the dawn of Cold War, and the US soon realized it needed a strong West German state as a bulwark against Communism.

In regard for the CSA, no idea.
 
I have to agree- after almost a hundred years of mutual hatred and separate development, it seems like the CSA would be very hard to absorb and more trouble than its worth...

A Morgenthau-style plan would seem rather plausible... the industry of the Confederacy could be sold off to give reparations to a black state carved out of the country, and the rump CSA would essentially just be the tobacco and cotton provider to the USA... (Actually, to fit the Morganthau plan even more there should be two agriculturalized CSAs- maybe the other one would be a independent Texas?)
 
The US absobs Kentucky and Louisana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennesse are you black republic. Virginia north of the James is also abosbred. The rest is a tobacco/cotton patch. TX can be independant, but closly watched. The US also takes Sonora and Chuiuhua (sp) plus Baja.
 
:( Yes this is my understanding of whats going to happen. I havent read the spoiler thread on the final book but you kind of pick things up here and there. I'm very much in support of the survival of a rump CSA .Certainly de-militarized and perhaps truncated by the creation of a black nation. To make the series a true ATL Turtledove shouldn't put things back together they way they were pre- 1861.

Pre 1861 there was an ongoing guerilla movement in a Dixie cleansed of Blacks?
 
Im sure the US is gonna annex as much of the CSA that they can. But I think if they really want to get back at the confederates, they should make a Black republic in South Carolina for poetic Irony. While turning Texas into a seperate puppet state. Then destroy any chance of the confederates of becoming anything more then a second world power at best.
 
Im sure the US is gonna annex as much of the CSA that they can. But I think if they really want to get back at the confederates, they should make a Black republic in South Carolina for poetic Irony. While turning Texas into a seperate puppet state. Then destroy any chance of the confederates of becoming anything more then a second world power at best.
After losing them from the Union 80 years ago, then being defeated by them 20 years after that, then defeating them soundly only to be attacked by a crazed dictator something-teen years afterwards, the US probably doesn't want to see them as any world power.
 
After losing them from the Union 80 years ago, then being defeated by them 20 years after that, then defeating them soundly only to be attacked by a crazed dictator something-teen years afterwards, the US probably doesn't want to see them as any world power.

I'm not sure the CSA was a World power at any point of it's history
 
I like that! How about the capitol of Cassiusville at Marshlands?

Im sure the US is gonna annex as much of the CSA that they can. But I think if they really want to get back at the confederates, they should make a Black republic in South Carolina for poetic Irony. While turning Texas into a seperate puppet state. Then destroy any chance of the confederates of becoming anything more then a second world power at best.
 
After the Freedom Party's death camps and a long history of anti-black killings in the CSA, how many blacks would still be around to set up a Black Republic much larger than 1 state? Would blacks move down from the north? There doesn't appear to be a lot of them up there. Any Black state would likely be in southern Alabama and Mississippi. The whites in the US would not want too large a state and they would demand it be as faraway as possible.
 
:( Yes this is my understanding of whats going to happen. I havent read the spoiler thread on the final book but you kind of pick things up here and there. I'm very much in support of the survival of a rump CSA .Certainly de-militarized and perhaps truncated by the creation of a black nation. To make the series a true ATL Turtledove shouldn't put things back together they way they were pre- 1861.

Why not reunify North and South? Having been separated for most of a century, they're not going to be the same sections that we had OTL. Obviously the second marriage is going to be a major headache for everyone involved. Unlike OTL, the Union military machine is a harsh, brutal thing, and the Confederates' hatred of the USA unquenchable. Even reunified, there is definitely going to be vast changes in the course of events to make it a "true ATL," which is not the point of the series in the first place. The point of the series in the first place is "It Can Happen Here." HT wanted to make his own version of that story and cloak it in an AH setting. Hence all the characters being North American (except for Schlieffen, but even then he was an outsider observing Americans), but I digress.

On the Morgenthau Plan, I don't think Philadelphia is going to worry so much about Confederate industry. For one thing, the CSA doesn't have anything close to the industry capacity that Germany had; I doubt it came anywhere close to what was in the Rhineland alone. The Confederates were already having shortage problems six months into the war; after Pittsburgh they did not have enough to slow down the USA juggernaut into Georgia. The Confederacy, quite simply, is not Germany. The CSA can never sustain a long-term war, industrially and militarily. The best they can hope for is a short campaign or two before the USA outgears them. If the USA wanted to avoid a fifth war with the CSA, it can easily do so on the political front, backed up with plenty of US Army power.

After the Freedom Party's death camps and a long history of anti-black killings in the CSA, how many blacks would still be around to set up a Black Republic much larger than 1 state? Would blacks move down from the north? There doesn't appear to be a lot of them up there. Any Black state would likely be in southern Alabama and Mississippi. The whites in the US would not want too large a state and they would demand it be as faraway as possible.

Two things. One, if the CSA was going to retain independence after 1944, it would be in both the USA and the Confederate blacks' best interests to give the latter group full citizenship privileges in the South. Let them balance out the whites in areas, or even outnumber them, thus indefinitely ensuring an anti-diehard turnout in local, state, and national elections (provided that enough blacks survive the population reductions to matter).

Two, if the CSA is going to be readmitted to the USA, again it would be in both the USA and the blacks' best interests to remain part of whatever political unit they're in, and not weaken themselves by creating their own state. The blacks can help the army of occupation by serving as auxiliaries, etc.

African-Americans living north of the Ohio River? They know better than to come down south and hope for a decent life, even if its under the protection of Yankee guns.
 
Why not reunify North and South? Having been separated for most of a century, they're not going to be the same sections that we had OTL. Obviously the second marriage is going to be a major headache for everyone involved. Unlike OTL, the Union military machine is a harsh, brutal thing, and the Confederates' hatred of the USA unquenchable. Even reunified, there is definitely going to be vast changes in the course of events to make it a "true ATL," which is not the point of the series in the first place. The point of the series in the first place is "It Can Happen Here." HT wanted to make his own version of that story and cloak it in an AH setting. Hence all the characters being North American (except for Schlieffen, but even then he was an outsider observing Americans), but I digress.




Two things. One, if the CSA was going to retain independence after 1944, it would be in both the USA and the Confederate blacks' best interests to give the latter group full citizenship privileges in the South. Let them balance out the whites in areas, or even outnumber them, thus indefinitely ensuring an anti-diehard turnout in local, state, and national elections (provided that enough blacks survive the population reductions to matter).

Two, if the CSA is going to be readmitted to the USA, again it would be in both the USA and the blacks' best interests to remain part of whatever political unit they're in, and not weaken themselves by creating their own state. The blacks can help the army of occupation by serving as auxiliaries, etc.

African-Americans living north of the Ohio River? They know better than to come down south and hope for a decent life, even if its under the protection of Yankee guns.



I'm interested in seeing the USA rewarded and the CSA punished as the outcome. Incoporating the CSA back into the USA rewards the Confederates( especially the Freedomites) and punishes the Americans( especially the blacks). The USA is going to have to expend a considerable amount of time and resources keeping the Confederates under control as it is,they dont deserve to be citizens as long as they are going to cause problems.
Establishing a black nation using former CSA territory is also an especially fitting punishment for the Confederates. Any surviving blacks dont deserve to continue to be dispersed amongst people who oppressed and tried to wipe them out. There needs to be a strong black state(or 2) that puts the blacks out of the CSA'S reach and that can defend itself if it came to it. Perhaps to build its numbers there will be a post war influx of blacks from Confederate Cuba,Haiti and even Africa.
 
I'm interested in seeing the USA rewarded and the CSA punished as the outcome. Incoporating the CSA back into the USA rewards the Confederates( especially the Freedomites) and punishes the Americans( especially the blacks). The USA is going to have to expend a considerable amount of time and resources keeping the Confederates under control as it is,they dont deserve to be citizens as long as they are going to cause problems.
Establishing a black nation using former CSA territory is also an especially fitting punishment for the Confederates. Any surviving blacks dont deserve to continue to be dispersed amongst people who oppressed and tried to wipe them out. There needs to be a strong black state(or 2) that puts the blacks out of the CSA'S reach and that can defend itself if it came to it. Perhaps to build its numbers there will be a post war influx of blacks from Confederate Cuba,Haiti and even Africa.

Perhaps carve a black free state out of each of the states of the C.S.A., its size depending on the percentage of blacks in the population? For example, North Carolina's only need encompass the lower Cape Fear Valley, but Louisiana's would be over half the state.
 
What if the US reabsorbs its former states, then sets up an independent black republic in Sonora and Chihuahua? I doubt the US wants those Confederate states.
 
Perhaps carve a black free state out of each of the states of the C.S.A., its size depending on the percentage of blacks in the population? For example, North Carolina's only need encompass the lower Cape Fear Valley, but Louisiana's would be over half the state.


Doing this would still have the effect of dispersing the blacks' numbers and that wouldnt be helpful.They need a strong, centralized area with as big a population as possible.
 
What if the US reabsorbs its former states, then sets up an independent black republic in Sonora and Chihuahua? I doubt the US wants those Confederate states.

It seems to me that those 2 states could make a good place to expel the especially virulent Freedomites(and Mormons). The black republic should be in the East and near a place strategically important to the US- ie Virginia,Tennessee,Georgia or horror of horror for the Freedomites-South Carolina!
 
Doing this would still have the effect of dispersing the blacks' numbers and that wouldnt be helpful.They need a strong, centralized area with as big a population as possible.

Would the U.S.A. necessarily want that? You can fiddle the borders so the black states border each other for the same effect. The reason I suggested it that way is because I figure the U.S.A. would want to do Reconstruction-type efforts state by state.
 
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