A More Unified Holy Roman Empire

I'm a bit confused. I talk about the 16th century Empire and how it was doing, and you cite the 17th Century Dutch Republic. Wouldn't 16th Century France's fiscal administration be the more valuable analogy? You keep equating "more centralized than thought" with "Dutch Republic fiscal system."

It's not like France didn't have trouble raising money and had a messy tax system...
 
IIRC there was something called the War of the Three Kingdoms which led to a military dictatorship that was followed up by a Dutch invasion.

I mean, you can say a lot of things, but Henry VIII wanted to impose the Anglican Church by force, Mary wanted to impose Catholicism, and Elisabeth's own feelings are well known. Then we get a Scottish Presbyterian invasion during the Civil War, and a Dutch prince invited in because a King is a Catholic. Kinda hard to say this didn't cause problems in England.

Not saying that it didn't hurt the country, but the country survived. Whereas I can't say that the HRE ever fully recovered from the 30 years war.
 
Not saying that it didn't hurt the country, but the country survived. Whereas I can't say that the HRE ever fully recovered from the 30 years war.

That's true. In OTL it did not.

I'm not sure why this means that in an ATL it couldn't have developed into a more centralized state.
 
I'm a bit confused. I talk about the 16th century Empire and how it was doing, and you cite the 17th Century Dutch Republic. Wouldn't 16th Century France's fiscal administration be the more valuable analogy? You keep equating "more centralized than thought" with "Dutch Republic fiscal system."

It's not like France didn't have trouble raising money and had a messy tax system...

No. I keep equating "centralized" with "a state actually capable of acquiring revenue".

1579 and 1599 are not the 17th century.

And the Dutch Republic's fiscal system is a reason for the Dutch being rich, not a guarantee of obedient tax payers.

But if you want a French example: 1596 revenue is 31 million livres = ~21.7 German florins by Wilson's conversion table.

From a population roughly equal to the nonHabsburg part of the HRE, with France currently "a country severely weakened by civil war, brigandage, high prices, and interrupted trade and agriculture, and its fiscal system was in pieces".

Despite that, it's producing as much revenue (4/5ths assigned and alienated, yes) as the Reichstag gave in the 1590s (you didn't specify it being per year, so I'm assuming that's over the course of that period).

Yeah, the HRE is a disappointing mess, even if Space Oddity is right about absolutism.

I should note that I'm not saying the HRE couldn't have done better - it certainly had a chance earlier and it might have had one in this period - but what happened OTL is pretty consistent with a very loose confederation.
 
That's true. In OTL it did not.

I'm not sure why this means that in an ATL it couldn't have developed into a more centralized state.

Well like all things AH it's not impossible but certainly less likely, you throw in all the external factors like neighbors, geography, New World, trade, population and you'd end up with less chances for the HRE to centralize compared to it's neighbors to the west. It would take more and stronger PODs to get to the same results.
 
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No. I keep equating "centralized" with "a state actually capable of acquiring revenue".
1579 and 1599 are not the 17th century.

Your initial quote was 1640.

But if you want a French example: 1596 revenue is 31 million livres = ~21.7 German florins by Wilson's conversion table.

This is useful, but I'm still not sure it tells the whole story. Could you classify the Emperor's revenue by combining what he's getting from the Reichstag with what he's getting from Bohemia et al?

In short, where's the money in France coming from?

I agree the HRE isn't as centralized as France, but the fact that its members are contributing about half the funds to defend what is, after all, the Habsburg border, is pretty indicative. And this is in an era of increasing confessional divides.

If the Empire had gone entirely Protestant? Who knows? As it was, only Bavaria and IIRC Lorraine were Catholic at the Reformation's high water mark.
 
Well like all things AH it's not impossible but certainly less likely, you throw in all the external factors like neighbors, geography, New World, trade, population and you'd end up with less chances for the HRE to centralize compared to it's neighbors to the west. It would take more and stronger PODs to get to the same results.

I'm not sure how the New World plays a role here?
 
Your initial quote was 1640.

Yes. And following quotes aren't.

This is useful, but I'm still not sure it tells the whole story. Could you classify the Emperor's revenue by combining what he's getting from the Reichstag with what he's getting from Bohemia et al?

In short, where's the money in France coming from?
One would normally imagine that "that year's revenue" means the revenue for that year - not funds granted by the Estates General or equivalent, not fortunate seizures of Spanish treasure ships. . .

I agree the HRE isn't as centralized as France, but the fact that its members are contributing about half the funds to defend what is, after all, the Habsburg border, is pretty indicative. And this is in an era of increasing confessional divides.

If the Empire had gone entirely Protestant? Who knows? As it was, only Bavaria and IIRC Lorraine were Catholic at the Reformation's high water mark.
It's pretty indicative of indifference. As stated, the Habsburg lands - counting their slice of Hungary - are about 40% of the population of "the rest of the Empire" put together. Unless the wealth disparity is equally great, they should be paying about thirty percent (with 70% paid by the Imperial Kreis and the rest of the empire).

And the idea that it was "the Habsburg border" is like regarding the navy as for the coastal states - not the attitude of someone thinking of the interests of the polity on the whole.
 
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One would normally imagine that "that year's revenue" means the revenue for that year - not funds granted by the Estates General or equivalent, not fortunate seizures of Spanish treasure ships. . .

Let me rephrase. What's the source of French revenue during this period? If it's a nationwide salt tax, it's different than if the revenue is mostly coming from crown estates; given the privileges French aristocrats had until the revolution, it'd be interesting to know.

I'm a bit... skeptical of these French numbers too. French involvement in the Julich War cost 5.38 million florin, which was apparently one third of the war chest Henry IV had built up since 1598.

And the idea that it was "the Habsburg border" is like regarding the navy as for the coastal states - not the attitude of someone thinking of the interests of the polity on the whole.

Ergo, the fact that the Empire as a whole paid for its defense shows there was concern for the polity as a whole, no?
 
Let me rephrase. What's the source of French revenue during this period? If it's a nationwide salt tax, it's different than if the revenue is mostly coming from crown estates; given the privileges French aristocrats had until the revolution, it'd be interesting to know.

I'm a bit... skeptical of these French numbers too. French involvement in the Julich War cost 5.38 million florin, which was apparently one third of the war chest Henry IV had built up since 1598.

It'd be interesting, but if we're comparing France's revenue to the Empire's, the fact that an exhausted and weakened France has revenue comparable to the HRE-outside-the-Habsburg-lands does not speak well of the HRE at all.

And given that fourth fifths of 1596''s revenue is "assigned and alienated", and the national debt is "almost 300 million livres",those are hardly mutually exclusive situations.

Ergo, the fact that the Empire as a whole paid for its defense shows there was concern for the polity as a whole, no?
Not really, It sounds like "when the Emperor cajoled and bargained, he could get support."

If the Empire on the whole was concerned for the polity on the whole, you'd see contributions to the cost in some sort of parallel to the population disparity (barring as stated the wealth grossly favoring the Habsburg lands), not less than half that.

I'm not sure how united you think the HRE was compared to the standard opinion, but this all reads like less of a state and more a loose confederation of states.
 
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