A more severe peace in 1871

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

A DMZ in 1871? I suppose it's not impossible, but it would be breaking new ground. Had anybody had any type of DMZ before? As long as we're on the subject, could there possibly be some sort of forced demilitarization of France? Say, forcing the French army to be only X-Thousand people?

 

[Susano]

A DMZ in 1871? I suppose it's not impossible, but it would be breaking new ground. Had anybody had any type of DMZ before? As long as we're on the subject, could there possibly be some sort of forced demilitarization of France? Say, forcing the French army to be only X-Thousand people?

Well, the terminology would be different of course but I think yes, terms to not fortify or garrison this or that town or region have been around for quite some time. As had restrictions on militaries, at least since Napoleons times, but in the case of the Franco-German War I think this would fall under the "not pissing Great Britain off" category.

 

[wietze]

After reading all this i wonder how far the Germans could have pushed it if they had been interested in the French colonial possesions.
So instead of taking french territory, they go for financial compensation & french colonies. How much could they have gained, and the consequences?

 

[Tellus]

After reading all this i wonder how far the Germans could have pushed it if they had been interested in the French colonial possesions.
So instead of taking french territory, they go for financial compensation & french colonies. How much could they have gained, and the consequences?

The French colonial empire is a bit light as it is in 1871; and that plan would really not fit with the "great continental power" vision of Bismark at the time, and Germany had no real navy yet, etc. This is a good reminder of what was on the table:

At the close of the Napoleonic Wars, most of France's colonies were restored to it by Britain, notably Guadeloupe and Martinique in the West Indies, French Guiana on the coast of South America, various trading posts in Senegal, the Île Bourbon (Réunion) in the Indian Ocean, and France's tiny Indian possessions. Britain finally annexed Saint Lucia, Tobago, the Seychelles, and the Île de France (Mauritius), however.

The true beginnings of the second French colonial empire, however, were laid in 1830 with the French invasion of Algeria, which was conquered over the next 17 years. During the Second Empire, headed by Napoleon III, an attempt was made to establish a colonial-type protectorate in Mexico, but this came to little, and the French were forced to abandon the experiment after the end of the American Civil War, when the American president, Andrew Johnson, invoked the Monroe Doctrine. This French intervention in Mexico lasted from 1861 to 1867. Napoleon III also established French control over Cochinchina (the southernmost part of modern Vietnam including Saigon) in 1867 and 1874, as well as a protectorate over Cambodia in 1863.

It was only after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871 and the founding of the Third Republic (1871-1940) that most of France's later colonial possessions were acquired. From their base in Cochinchina, the French took over Tonkin (in modern northern Vietnam) and Annam (in modern central Vietnam) in 1884-1885. These, together with Cambodia and Cochinchina, formed French Indochina in 1887 (to which Laos was added in 1893, and Kwang-Chou-Wan [1] in 1900). In 1849, the French concession in Shanghai was established, lasting until 1946.

Essentially, the colony that France had after 1900 that Germany wanted most was Morocco. France is in no position to hand it to Germany yet, and neither power can safely claim it. I guess its not impossible for the treaty to establish that Morocco is within the German Sphere of Interest and that France will make no attempt to establish a colony there, nor would it hinder any future German attempt to claim it as theirs.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Well, the terminology would be different of course but I think yes, terms to not fortify or garrison this or that town or region have been around for quite some time. As had restrictions on militaries, at least since Napoleons times, but in the case of the Franco-German War I think this would fall under the "not pissing Great Britain off" category.

The Crimean War is another thing to bear in mind: Russia had basically been landed with a "demilitarised coast", and it's not such a leap from there to a "demilitarised frontier".

 

[Susano]

Morocco? That was an independent Kingdom in 1871. And only became interesting for Germany due to the Rumble for Africa, really, when everybody was looking for the last free places to occupy... In 1871, the problem is Great Britain looming over the whole process. If they find the peace treaty excessively harsh, and then Germany also attempts to take the French colonies, or at least say Senegal, Cochinchina+Cambodia and the Indian Ocean islands, could the UK simply decide to snap them for itself?

 

[wormyguy]

If this makes sense - what if the Communards in Paris manage to seize power elsewhere in the country - a second "French revolution."

Might other European powers, such as the UK, look favorably upon the Germans imposing [much] harsher terms on the new radical government?

 

[Susano]

If this makes sense - what if the Communards in Paris manage to seize power elsewhere in the country - a second "French revolution."

Might other European powers, such as the UK, look favorably upon the Germans imposing [much] harsher terms on the new radical government?

Well, the Commune was put down by French troops as the Germans just watched. It really didnt seem to have gained much support outside of Paris itself, and its entire ideology and structure didnt exactly help standing up in a conflict, either. Of course its easy for the Communards to get much more support - but enough support that any new French government cant put it down? Dunno... seems difficult to engineer, AH-wise, maybe... I wont say its impossible, just, as said, could be difficult...

 

[wormyguy]

Well, the French army would presumably have to become radicalized somehow. Maybe if the Government of National Defence insists on futile attacks to relieve Paris?

 

[Monty Burns]

The French colonial empire is a bit light as it is in 1871; and that plan would really not fit with the "great continental power" vision of Bismark at the time, and Germany had no real navy yet, etc.

Good points.

However, we should bear in mind that an early German colonial empire would have a major impact on politics, whereas, as discussed previously, I would agree that more territorial annexations should change not that much on the long term.

If Germany demands all French South-East Asian possesions, plus Senegal and some outposts around the world, Germany will have to invest in a fleet which differs considerably from OTL Hochseeflotte. And Germany will have to consider defence in an utterly different way, particularly with respect to Britain. This will change German policy considerably. Not necessarily to the better, though...

 

[Ofaloaf]

Well, the French army would presumably have to become radicalized somehow. Maybe if the Government of National Defence insists on futile attacks to relieve Paris?

That was pretty much the entire purpose of the French Army in OTL after the Germans surrounded it. Nearly every major operation was an attempt to reach Paris and relieve the siege (when they weren't doing defensive actions). It's probably more likely to piss off and radicalize northern Frenchmen if the government simply cuts its losses and fights a defensive war in the south, and never stakes its fate in the city of Paris.