A more powerful Ireland

Could Ireland ever be roughly as powerful as Scotland at its height? Could we ever see Ireland and Scotland working together and collectively being strong enough to maintain their independence?
 
Well Scotland is larger and more populous and has more mineral resources but Ireland has much better agricultural land. More of a recipe for conflict between them. Anglo-Irish relations got much worse after the union of crowns between Scotland and Ireland
 
Well Scotland is larger and more populous and has more mineral resources but Ireland has much better agricultural land. More of a recipe for conflict between them. Anglo-Irish relations got much worse after the union of crowns between Scotland and Ireland
As is tradition, first of all, a shameless plug: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/one-people-one-kingdom.424453/

Now seriously, Scotland's more populus now but that was never the historical case until the Famine. Before then the population of Ireland was usually a hundred thousand to half a million larger. http://www.paolomalanima.it/default_file/Papers/MEDIEVAL_GROWTH.pdf. As we get to the famine period itself the population of Ireland ends up nearly quadruple that of Scotland. Scotland's trump card compared to Ireland is it's comparatively quick unification allowing for a greater ability to make use of any assets it had, give that to Ireland and we, IMO, would see a much different scenario.
 
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As is tradition, first of all, a shameless plug: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/one-people-one-kingdom.424453/

Now seriously, Scotland's more populus now but that was never the historical case un the Famine. Before then the population of Ireland was usually a hundred thousand to half a million larger. http://www.paolomalanima.it/default_file/Papers/MEDIEVAL_GROWTH.pdf. As we get to the famine period itself the population of Ireland ends up nearly quadruple that of Scotland. Scotland's trump card compared to Ireland is it's comparatively quick unification allowing for a greater ability to make use of any assets it had, give that to Ireland and we, IMO, would see a much different scenario.

Even right now, the island of Ireland in total has about a million more people than Scotland. It's the Republic of Ireland that is smaller.
 
Could Ireland ever be roughly as powerful as Scotland at its height? Could we ever see Ireland and Scotland working together and collectively being strong enough to maintain their independence?
An Ireland that united early (such as if Brian Boru and his son survived at Clontarf and succeeded in maintaining unity) would be in a great geographical position to become a major colonial power despite its size like Portugal.
 
Ireland had like 8 million people before the famine. If they just went through normal demographic trends they could conceivably have been at 24 million by 1914, stayed out of world war equivalents and undergone population growth of the continent missed out on, and have like 40 million people by 1965. With low population growth that could grow up to 50 million by today naturally, and with immigration post 1960 make it 65 million by today for a true wank.

But with just normal demographic trends from the 1840s onwards they probably have 30+ million today. Ireland had one of the worst 19th to early 20th centuries imaginable as far as building a power base.
 
Ireland had like 8 million people before the famine. If they just went through normal demographic trends they could conceivably have been at 24 million by 1914, stayed out of world war equivalents and undergone population growth of the continent missed out on, and have like 40 million people by 1965. With low population growth that could grow up to 50 million by today naturally, and with immigration post 1960 make it 65 million by today for a true wank.

But with just normal demographic trends from the 1840s onwards they probably have 30+ million today. Ireland had one of the worst 19th to early 20th centuries imaginable as far as building a power base.
As economic historian Joel Mokyr said it's fair to speculate that without the famine and waves of emigration after Ireland's population would have continued to grow like any other European country. 40/50 million seems a bit much but then again South Korea is only about 16,000 square kilometres larger than Ireland but has 51 million people.

Ireland had one of the worst 19th to early 20th centuries imaginable as far as building a power base.
Murphy's Law basically sums up much of Irish history. Murphy is an Irish name too.. :p
 
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Ireland had like 8 million people before the famine. If they just went through normal demographic trends they could conceivably have been at 24 million by 1914, stayed out of world war equivalents and undergone population growth of the continent missed out on, and have like 40 million people by 1965. With low population growth that could grow up to 50 million by today naturally, and with immigration post 1960 make it 65 million by today for a true wank.

But with just normal demographic trends from the 1840s onwards they probably have 30+ million today. Ireland had one of the worst 19th to early 20th centuries imaginable as far as building a power base.

Ireland's population could have gotten larger but it would never be huge in a world like OTL where it is ruled by a powerful UK that has an empire (plus the anglophone USA exists). The precedent of emigration (to the UK, US, Canada, Australia) was already well established by the time of the famine. Not only are living conditions poor in Ireland, there are lots of opportunities for Irish emigrants elsewhere, so why stay? A lot of its people will look for opportunities elsewhere just like the Scots and Welsh.

Consider: in 1921, England had 35,2 million people, Scotland had 4,47 million and Wales had 2,656 million people.

In 2016, England had 55,3 million people, Scotland had 5,4 million and Wales 3,113 million. In the past century, England was a magnet for growth; the rest of the British Isles were not.
 
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Ireland's population could have gotten larger but it would never be huge in a world like OTL where it is ruled by a powerful UK that has an empire (plus the anglophone USA exists). The precedent of emigration (to the UK, US, Canada, Australia) was already well established by the time of the famine. Not only are living conditions poor in Ireland, there are lots of opportunities for Irish emigrants elsewhere, so why stay? A lot of its people will look for opportunities elsewhere just like the Scots and Welsh.

Consider: in 1921, England had 35,2 million people, Scotland had 4,47 million and Wales had 2,656 million people.

In 2016, England had 55,3 million people, Scotland had 5,4 million and Wales 3,113 million. In the past century, England was a magnet for growth; the rest of the British Isles were not.

Depends on factors, if the Irish economy is stronger than the population numbers would hold up stronger than otl, I mean take the Tiger years where the population grew by a million in under 20 years (from a low base), and is expected to hit another million within 15 years. It would be interesting if different factors from even the Free State would change things. Pivot to deal with the prohibition like the Scots did and a major rural industry (whiskey) doesn't get shattered thus keeping more employed during the first decade of the state (and keeping whisky in second place). Change the decision on WW2 and maybe end up getting the yanks to pay for massive infrastructure upgrades improving the economy...
 

Zachariah

Banned
Taking one of my prior suggestions from another thread, how about having Henry II gaining the approval of either Pope Alexander III or his successor to have John crowned King of Ireland? From that POD, John Angevin's first visit to Ireland in 1185 goes far better than it did IOTL, and John I is successfully coronated as the first King of Ireland, with him and his successors going on to develop and expand the Irish economy, increasing the efficacy of Irish taxation and established numerous new Irish market towns. In contrast, in this TL, the English economy largely stagnates relative to that of Ireland- John never becomes King of England, butterflying Liverpool (a town which he personally founded by royal charter himself in the early 13th century) out of existence, with far-reaching consequences for English colonial aspirations.

Due to butterflies, John's elder brother Geoffrey escapes his death in the jousting tournament in 1186, becoming King of England instead; Geoffrey's personal friendship with Philip II of France sees Geoffrey retain his place as the ruler of Normandy, Brittany and Anjou, as a vassal of Philip II; the long-proposed marriage of his daughter, Eleanor, to Philip's son and eventual successor, Louis VIII, goes ahead without King Richard alive to interfere, and the Angevin kingdoms on the mainland soon merge with the Kingdom of France. However, he becomes a far more neglectful and tyrannical ruler in England than John I ever was IOTL, rousing far more resentment about his even worse misgovernment, fiscal policies and treatment of many of England's most powerful nobles.

As such, with the Magna Carta never signed ITTL, the First Baron's War becomes a full-blown civil war, one which ousts the Angevin dynasty permanently. Largely indifferent about the loss of England, with his primary focus on France, Geoffrey withdraws from England; and the Kingdom of England fragments, with the 25 (probably more ITTL) feudal baronies fighting against one another for dominance, and England becoming a patchwork quilt of principalities with no true king, to an even greater extent than Germany and the contemporary Holy Roman Empire.

Because of this, the primary base of power, wealth and trade in the British Isles shifts permanently from the chaotic, divided and war-ravaged lands of England to the stable, unified and well-governed Kingdom of Ireland- with Llywelyn the Great, one of John I's greatest allies and son-in-law IOTL, and the Kingdoms of Wales under his dominion, eventually becoming vassals of the Irish crown instead of the English crown ITTL. And following the marriage of Alexander III of Scotland and King John's grandaughter Margaret, the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland are subsequently unified under the rule of their only son and heir to both thrones (following the death of Edward I in the Ninth Crusade, with the Muslim assassin who stabbed him with a poisoned dagger in June 1272 successfully killing him).

Would you say that this would satisfy the requirements of this thread?
 
Could Ireland ever be roughly as powerful as Scotland at its height?
Considering its size and resources I'd say that an on par development and investment would lead to it being more powerful than Scotland.

Could we ever see Ireland and Scotland working together and collectively being strong enough to maintain their independence?
I presume by independence you mean less dominated by England and not in political union? Since both had parliaments independent of England prior to union and post union the UK Parliament was merely dominated by English MPs rather than being an occupying force.
To avoid political union one needs to avoid the personal union of the monarchs. With Scotland that's fairly easy, with Ireland you need to either avoid the weakness of the High Kingship or have a separate crown established under Henry II's successors that separates from England.
To have a united Ireland and united Scotland working together you need England to be a strong enough threat to them individually but also less profitable as an ally.
 
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