A More Perfect Union: An Alternate History of the Land of the Free

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by HeX, May 22, 2019.

  1. SavoyTruffle I am the modren man

    Sep 14, 2010
    As long as we get Kurdistan and no Sykes-Picot I'm good.
  2. HonestAbe1809 Abraham Lincoln 2020

    Dec 1, 2013
    1. Give Greece control over the lands in the map, with maybe Cyprus as well. Greece should get the Greeks, after all.
    2. Give the ethnic minorities like the Kurds and maybe the Assyrians their own nations.
    3. No artificial divisions between Arabic-speaking peoples like Sykes-Picot.
    4. I'm thinking that the House of Saud should be kept as far away from the reins of power as possible. I'm thinking that having a massive Kingdom of Arabia under the Hashemites would be a good idea.
    5. Though what to do with the Zionists is something I don't know. Maybe having a secular Republic of Palestine could work.
    Raiyleigh, Saturninus, AugMag and 7 others like this.
  3. Helmuth von Moltke Well-Known Member

    Dec 19, 2017
    Who ended up with Northern Macedonia? Unless the Serbs and Bulgarians were able to work out some sort of very tricky compromise, this could definitely lead to tensions between the Balkans states as IOTL.
    In regards to the Megali idea, Constantinople and Cyprus are definitely workable, but in order for the western coast of Anatolia to be workable Greek, you would need to see both some amount of population transfer (this could possibly be managed more equitably that IOTL via some sort of reparations for transportees on both sides, but its still hard to do ethically) in order to ensure that it won't be eternally restive, and a general weakening of Turkey by strengthening states like Kurdistan, Armenia, and Georgia in order to ensure that the Turks don't just take it back. iN short, Greek territories in Anatolia will be hard to maintain without a good deal of work.
  4. Teutoberg Forest Well-Known Member

    Jul 11, 2014
    I think that how much land Greece gets depends on who is their main superpower backer, Germany or the US. It seems like the US won't countenance a massive Greek expansion into Turkish-majority land, but if Greece is primarily backed by Germany that might be different, leading to a situation like OTL Poland's enlargement after WWII.
  5. HeX Self-Proclaimed Disney Expert

    Sep 21, 2018
    Disneyland, U.S.A.
    Ooh, that's tricky. See, Greece styles itself more after the US (clinging to their legacy of "the first democracy" a lot more than OTL), but in hard numbers and stats, German presence is greater in Greece than American presence. I suppose the Greeks could justify the Megali Idea as their own form of Manifest Destiny, and if they treat their minorities well like the Americans did and still do, then there shouldn't be too much of an issue. That being said, I think achieving all of the Megali Idea might be stretching things too far. The US probably wouldn't adore Greece seizing too much of Turkey, but them taking Greek-majority lands or places that want to join the Republic wouldn't be seen as evil.

    The Greeks took most of northern Macedonia, actually. There was a lot of debate between the Balkan states as to who should get it, but with Greece being the biggest player in the Wars of Independence, having the historical claim of Alexander the Great, the quintessential Greek, being from there, and having the largest military presence in the region (and not being too afraid of fighting another war over it), it was decided the First Democracy should get it. Even if the Bulgarians and Serbs weren't too pleased.

    I am unsure about Ionia. I'll have to work it out. Western Thrace and Constantinople seem like likely additions, though.
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  6. SavoyTruffle I am the modren man

    Sep 14, 2010
    Poland didn't really get enlarged, more like it got compensated with formerly German lands (which were last in Polish hands way back in the 13th century) in exchange for giving up its eastern territories (which to be fair didn't have a Polish majority, except for the area around Vilnius).
    Simeon and Teutoberg Forest like this.
  7. HeX Self-Proclaimed Disney Expert

    Sep 21, 2018
    Disneyland, U.S.A.
    Oh, and also, how would y'all feel about a potential Maps and Graphics thread for the A More Perfect Union Expanded Universe being made as a sort-of sequel to this, once the TL's over and done? (The end point of this timeline, which will be about 2025, seems to be fast approaching, considering I covered the eighteenth/nineteenth century in four months and will probably cover the twentieth/twenty-first in another five or six.)

    There's a lot I haven't covered both inside and out of the US that I just couldn't fit anywhere, from Eli Whitney to John Brown to George Washington Carver to the OSS, so I think it'd be a fine addition. I just have to first either master Photoshop or get help to make better maps than worldas.
    Saturninus, 46566, AugMag and 11 others like this.
  8. Jacob T. Fawkes Member

    Aug 16, 2019
    That sounds amazing. Honestly, reading this alternate history and seeing the occasional info graphic, I would love to see you design a "A More Perfect Union" Wikia. I think that would be absolutely stunning and would allow you to go into greater detail without necessarily adding in a lot of narrative elements.
    Simeon, AeroTheZealousOne and HeX like this.
  9. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

    Jun 29, 2017
    Go Kurdistan! As an Israeli, I can say that Israel stands behind you (even though ITTL there is no Israel yet).

    Not gonna lie, I kinda support the Megali Idea. Would likely lead to a stronger Greece.

    I like Germany a lot ITTL due to it being far buffer. Russia can go screw itself for all I care.

    The Entente has all the incompetent empires (except Japan, Japan seems strong and competent) while the league has all the well-organized and rich empires. We all know the outcome of the upcoming war.

    Btw, happy Yom Kippur everyone! Yesterday I fasted, and it was awful! :)
  10. generalurist Map Staring Expert

    Dec 21, 2013
    A Great War in which Germany deliberately pursues an East First strategy? This will be quite interesting.

    Given the Greeks in OTL were pretty serious about the reconquest, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to them to achieve it if they have the right allies. But the consequences of the restive Turkic minority must be addressed.

    And really, there are too few TLs in which Greece manages to fully reconquer any Anatolian territories.
    Raiyleigh, Cryostorm, Simeon and 2 others like this.
  11. SavoyTruffle I am the modren man

    Sep 14, 2010
    I mean if the Greeks are really intent on the Megali Idea why stop at Smyrna? Why not try to grab Pontus/Trebizond? Or restore pre-Manzikert borders?
    Raiyleigh, Simeon and HeX like this.
  12. HeX Self-Proclaimed Disney Expert

    Sep 21, 2018
    Disneyland, U.S.A.
    I wouldn't say the Entente has totally incompetent empires. Britain, France, and Japan are all very strong, Portugal's no slouch, and Spain's citizens have a lot of anger to channel from the Spanish-Japanese War towards the League. Really it's just Russia and the Ottomans falling apart at the seams. In short, Eastern Europe? It'll be coming undone as fast as a toddler's shoestrings once war breaks out. Western Europe? The Battle of the Somme everywhere.

    I quite like the Megali Idea as well. I just didn't know if Greece kinda sorta stealing parts of Turkey would fit in the Revolutionary Spirit of TTL. So... thicc Greece it is, with a side of Turkish discontent!

    For a number of reasons. One, the US is not going to allow their ally to totally dismantle a nation state for its own selfish gains. Two, I don't think Greece has the capabilities to take lands as far flung as Pontus. Three, what? Pre-Manzikert borders? No way in hell could Greece reconquer all of Anatolia. Especially when Turkish nationalism shall still bloom like a flower.
  13. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

    Aug 19, 2016
    And the only way America will let Greek Pontus occur would be a West Pakistan/East Pakistan situation where the Pontus is a Greek enclave separated by Turkey.
    Simeon likes this.
  14. Raiyleigh Active Member

    Feb 27, 2019
    Turkey could be balkanized with an Alevi Turk state and a Sunni Turk state. Alevis could be the Republic while Sunni could be the kingdom/dictatorship type. Given all the possible countries being formed from OE or lands were taken away from it, Turkey would be very small.
    Simeon likes this.
  15. Cryostorm Monthly Donor

    Jan 9, 2012
    Charleston, SC United States of America
    Yeah, from what I can tell in 1918 Turks comprised ~40%-45% of the Anatolian/Thracian population, Greeks and Armenian ~12% each and the rest Kurds, Arabs, and other Muslim minority groups.
    Raiyleigh likes this.
  16. Raiyleigh Active Member

    Feb 27, 2019
    Probably more diverse since it is before the mass ethnic cleansing of 1914-1922 or Turkification.
  17. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

    Aug 4, 2018
    yes complete realistic after the great war they would have achieved but then autark happened and eveyrhting change you would need to have nearbey power gaing quite a bit of land, as well the colonial power getitng involed but there no way there getting the bohpurous the most likely become a dmz
    Simeon likes this.
  18. Jacob T. Fawkes Member

    Aug 16, 2019
    Analyzing the division of the Ottoman Empire, I feel like everyone has made very fair points.

    Were I to take an analysis of the current situation and the Middle East and correct the structural issues, this is how I might divide the Ottoman Empire.

    Grant Greece the historically-Greek Ionian provinces in Anatolia.

    Grant Constantinople and Jerusalem status as "Cities of the World", belonging to no single nation and instead administered by a international governing body (and regional functionaries for day-to-day operations).

    Kuwait will granted independence (they were already nominally independent OTL under British protection).

    The regions of OTL northern Iraq, Northern Syria, and Southern Turkey will be divided to form Kurdistan.

    The regions of OTL Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, and Western Iraq (the predominantly Sunni regions) form Arabia under the Hashemites (as was agreed to before Sykes-Picot), likely also declaring themselves as the Sharifian Caliphate (providing more centralized governing authority for the Sunni sect of Islam with a more moderate lean, removing the political influences of Wahhabism).

    Eastern Iraq might be granted to Iran (perhaps in exchange for the Northern Kurdish states to join Kurdistan).

    The division of the remainder of Turkey and Syria into separate polities.

    Grant the independence of the Caucasus (from Russia) and Northern Turkey to form an Armenian state (especially if the Armenian Genocide occurs ITL). Armenia may end up becoming the Israel counterpart in such a timeline.

    I believe that covers most of the Ottoman Empire.
  19. Threadmarks: The Greatest Generation, Part Three: Let My People Go

    HeX Self-Proclaimed Disney Expert

    Sep 21, 2018
    Disneyland, U.S.A.
    March 19, 1913

    Two dozen battered men, dressed in rags bearing the names of a half-dozen state militias from Milwaukee to Buffalo, slogged through the snow. The sky was growing dark, wisps of white clouds barely illuminated by the setting sun. Soon, if the Red Army of Superior didn't find shelter, frostbite would set in.

    "Wonder if this was what General Washington felt when he and his men were freezing their asses off at Valley Forge," said Lieutenant Cole Jackson.

    Sergeant Clem Bukowski puffed on an illegal Canadian cigarette, then replied, "At least they knew where they were. We've been walking so much we could be in Hamilton for all I know."

    "If we were in Hamilton, we'd be passed out from altitude sickness, Clem."

    "Point still stands, Lieutenant. We've been walking for-goddamn-ever. The men are tired. I'm tired. And we ain't much use in defeating the blasted capitalists if we're beat."

    "Hear, hear!" chimed one of the privates at the back.

    "Alright, let's just... we'll go another quarter-mile, and if there aren't any landmarks, we'll set up camp for the night," conceded Jackson.

    The troop marched on, hiking up a hill that soon leveled off, giving the Falconers a good view of the surrounding landscape. Off in the distance, about two hundred yards away, a fire could be glimpsed through the beginnings of a snowstorm, accompanied by a few shadowy figures milling around. "Looks like we've got tonight's final destination plotted, ladies," the lieutenant barked.

    "What if it's Unionists? Or, more likely, Union-leaning Indians?" asked an infantryman, worry in his voice.

    "Well," said Bukowski, "it's sure as hell the best chance we got."

    A half-hour later, the Red Army finally made it to about a hundred feet from the fire when they were stopped by a man with a strange hat and a rifle in hand. "State your business," he said.

    "What kinda goofy outfit are you wearing?" Jackson snorted.

    The guard was unmoved. "State your business, please. Your names, too. And be quick about it. My trigger finger's real itchy."

    "Relax, pal. I'm Lieutenant Cole Jackson of the 32nd Infantry, Red Army of the State of Superior. This here's Sergeant Clem Bukowski, my right hand man. We'd like to know where we are, and if we could stay with you all. Got run off the road two days ago, and the blizzard made it impossible to find our way back."

    The man lowered his rifle, face clenched in disgust.
    "A nigger with a Polish name? And in command of European men, to boot? You really do see something new every day, eh?"

    "Excuse me?" the lieutenant exclaimed. "You wanna try saying that again? Where are you from, you racist bastard? Nebraska?"

    The guard chuckled coldly. "Sonny, you're in Canada. Dakota's about fifteen miles south. It's just the Great White North this way."

    "Emphasis on the 'white'," coughed Bukowski.

    "--And right now, you ragtag band of socialist Yanks are skirting the camp of one of His Majesty's finest units of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. So I suggest you git, before I call my friends over and we have a little target practice."

    Another man strode over. "Who are these idiots, Jenkins?"

    "Americans, Captain Kelley," replied the first Mountie.

    "Americans? They fuckin' Unionists or damn Reds?"

    "Reds, sir."

    "Hot damn, we just might be going home early then, boys!" laughed Kelley.

    "What?" asked Jenkins.

    "Gentlemen," began the captain, turning to face the Red Army unit, "all mounted police south of Winnipeg have been given orders to aid any of Eugene V. Debs' Falconers, courtesy of Parliament and King Edward VII themselves. I suspect we'll be heading south of the border for a little American holiday bright and early tomorrow morning, together."

    The Falconers were silent. Then, little by little, they started to giggle, then chuckle, then laugh uproariously, clutching their sides and wiping tears from their eyes.

    "I'm sorry--did I say something funny?" grumbled the captain.

    "It's just--it's just that, that, that... HAH HA HA!" managed Lieutenant Jackson, before breaking down again.

    "If I may?" asked Sergeant Bukowski, to which Jackson nodded, still chuckling. "Listen here, Canuck, and listen fast," he growled, "You are one hundred percent correct about the fact that we don't like the Unionists and their capitalist dogshit. But you've got another thing coming if you think that any American--male or female, black or white, Socialist or Federalist--would take any sort of help from a racist, sexist, xenophobic lot such as you and your empire."

    "Watch your tongue, Red," warned Captain Kelley.

    "No. I ain't gonna watch my tongue. We won't be staying. Thanks for nothing, and from all of us folks 'south of the border': stay the fuck on your side of the forty-ninth." For good measure, Bukowski spat at the feet of the two Mounties.

    The Red Army of the State of Superior reluctantly turned around, as the sergeant hurried to the front to lead them out.

    "Oh, and one last thing?" stated Lieutenant Jackson. "Just know that the next time you see a battalion of American troops this far north, it's probably because we're invading this sorry excuse for a country."


    There are two sides to every coin, and revolution is no different. Sometimes, revolution can be a glorious affair, producing something better than what came before. Other times, it's a bloody, pointless cycle of pain and sorrow that either fails humiliatingly or births a state far worse off than prior to those violent days. Most every revolution and many civil wars can be grouped in either the former or the latter.

    The Falcon Uprising fell somewhere in between.

    It was 1912, and just as with the Civil War fifty-two years before, an unprecedented victory in a presidential election had brought armed rebellion back to the national stage once more. For those brave souls of the 1860s, it had been the utter decimation of the Democratic-Republican Party one last time by the venerated almost-saint Abraham Lincoln. The Civil War had been the triumph of the American ideal, when Revolutionary Spirit leapt from the words of great men and women to the binding documents that held the nation together. Following the war, the United States' largest export was no longer cotton or manufactured goods. It was ideas. The fight for what was right shaped the way the country would function forever more. The Falcon Uprising was lining up to fit many of the same parameters. Many people revered Teddy Roosevelt as the second coming of Lincoln, and demonized Eugene V. Debs as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis. And if Upton Sinclair and his fellow radical Socialists were the equivalent of the thirteen states that seceded from the Union in 1860, then Samuel Gompers and his crew of loyal Socialists were Virginia, Tsalagi, and Sequoyah, the rebellious border realms who decided loyalty to the Republic was far more important than chasing a fleeting, flawed dream. The Falcon Uprising would spell the end for many things in America, but it would not spell the end for socialism.

    The war didn't begin immediately. It took some time for everything to set in. Then, on January 20, 1913, Teddy's first day in office, the Battle of Chicago began. It was a swift and early victory for the radical Socialists, who had taken to calling themselves "Falconers," after the Council of Five Falcons, as the police force was defeated and any Federalists within the metropolis were forcibly removed, their belongings taken and their homes looted. The Council of Five Falcons (having replaced Gompers with a new member, Charles E. Ruthenberg) took over the iconic Rookery Building at 209 South LaSalle Street as their new headquarters, proudly hanging a flag displaying the hammer and gear, one of the more recognizable symbols of their movement, in the lobby that had been designed by architecture legend Frank Lloyd Wright. The Council met with representatives for the states of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Superior, and Wisconsin and, together, signed the Declaration of the Dissolution of the Old Republic, the founding document for what the Falconers hoped to be the next global superpower, the United Socialist States of America. The USSA accepted entries to it's new government from across the nation; though those five Great Lakes states would be the only ones to officially secede from the Union over the course of the entire Uprising, various communes and rebel groups, such as the People's Liberation Army from Vancouver or the Alpine Commune that controlled most of Denver, Hamilton, also were allowed entry.

    One of the many symbols of the Falcon Uprising, the Hammer and Gear

    Unlike in the Civil War, there weren't many defined borders outside of the Great Lakes Five. That meant putting down the Uprising would take an entirely different strategy. General George Armstrong Custer, the Hero of the Banana Wars and Commander of the United States Army following Ulysses S. Grant's 1905 death, worked together with President Roosevelt (himself a military man) and Generals Frederick Funston and John J. Pershing to concoct a plan of action to take down Debs. The contiguous United States was divided up into six zones: the Northeast, the South, the Midwest, the Great Plains, the Pacific Northwest, and the Southwest. A General was then placed in charge of each region, and was given an ordered list of targets to regain from Falcon hands. A number of large, important cities--including Douglass, Galveston, Nashville, San Antonio, and Louisville--had fallen to the Reds, and the recapture of them was the top priority of the zone generals. All of this reorganizing took almost five months, from January to June of 1913, which set Teddy on edge, considering the confused state militias were scrambling and losing far too much ground to the Socialists. In response, he went against his personal beliefs and reinstituted the draft, which had been disposed of in 1864. Thousands of young men began training to defend their proud nation. Many women also joined the armed forces, only in support roles on the battlefield but allowed to serve in the Navy just like any man.

    General George Armstrong Custer, Commander of the United States Army

    The first Union offensive began with Custer's Siege of Cairo. Cairo, Illinois was smack dab in the center of what was sometimes called "Little Egypt," a place where two great rivers, the Ohio and Mississippi, combined to form one aquatic highway, just like how the Blue and White Niles did in the real Egypt. The battle was the first of what one could actually consider conventional warfare in the Falcon Uprising, with all previous engagements really being just riots with fancy names. It lasted from June 24 to June 30 and, thanks to the help of a few disgruntled Populist farmers, it ended in a victory for the Union. The crux of the Mississippi and the Ohio had been removed from the Falconer's grasp, and quickly--it was as though Vicksburg had come in place of Fort Marlon. Troops were left behind to hold the city, as Custer moved on to help out in Ohio and Michigan with the charge on Toldeo.

    A column of Union infantry marches through Cairo, Illinois, July 4, 1913

    Saint Louis was recaptured in August, returning a major railroad intersection to Union hands. And then things just kind of... stagnated for about three more months. Oh, there was fighting--plenty of it. General Custer pressed on into Indiana, though it was slow going there, and Pershing struggled to contain the dual threat of Texas and Pecos. But nothing major in regards to the really happened.

    Except for the emergence of a New York gentleman called Winston Churchill. Churchill had been a journalist at a young age, but after witnessing the horrors of the British during the Boer Wars, he'd changed. He no longer merely wanted to write about the world; he wanted to change it. In 1904, Churchill had been one of the few Federalists elected to Congress, though these even existing was mostly because of his sharp rejection of bribery by the robber-barons. Churchill was almost a Theodore Roosevelt in miniature. Churchill became Speaker of the House in 1912, and would be instrumental in the passage of the president's Square Deal through a reluctant and moderate Federalist congress.

    Winston Churchill in 1904, his first year in Congress as a Representative for the State of New York

    1913, for all the leadup, had proven to be disappointing on the field of war. Of course, it would make up for that in the next year, 1914, better known as the Year of Bloody Fields.
  20. farmerted555 Well-Known Member

    Oct 8, 2015
    Sweet, sweet stupid Britain. Are you TRYING to get your ass kicked?