A more feckless German army during ww1

I see many thread about a CP victory during ww1 or thread about a quicker entente victory because a
more capable army (French, Russian, ...)

But I asked myself the question with a PoD after 1900 could we have a more feckless/incompetent Germany during ww1 that will be less sucessfull and made many error, meaning a faster defeat.

If yes what degree of incompetence can it achieve and what will be the results

PS : i'm curious to see the PoD that will make the German army the most inept.
 

Deleted member 1487

I see many thread about a CP victory during ww1 or thread about a quicker entente victory because a
more capable army (French, Russian, ...)

But I asked myself the question with a PoD after 1900 could we have a more feckless/incompetent Germany during ww1 that will be less sucessfull and made many error, meaning a faster defeat.

If yes what degree of incompetence can it achieve and what will be the results

PS : i'm curious to see the PoD that will make the German army the most inept.
You'd need a POD further back from that given that the roots of German military competence go as far back as the Napoleonic Wars and their massive drubbing in 1806 and the near end of Prussia as a state. Once you get to the victory in 1870-1 against France and the formation of Germany things are pretty well set in terms of a system fostering military competence from generation to generation. As it was they did make plenty of mistakes in 1914 that kept the war going, but for the really catastrophic military incompetence beyond OTL you'd need some structural changes going back pretty far that would create a ton of butterflies that might prevent WW1 or even the formation of Germany.
 
Well, the most logical thing is their plans to work because the German high command wasn't to positive, they wanted to win soon and thought that a two front war was impossible to win. If I was the German High Command I would have fortied the Alsace-Loraine front way more, conquer Russia 1941 like and destabilize the Russian Empire. After that the Schlieffen plan would have made more sense, because the international order just saw the collapse of an empire that existed for 3 centuries. But that is a different plan. So I guess the answer you want is a successful home by Christmas Schlieffen scenario.
 
You'd need a POD further back from that given that the roots of German military competence go as far back as the Napoleonic Wars and their massive drubbing in 1806 and the near end of Prussia as a state. Once you get to the victory in 1870-1 against France and the formation of Germany things are pretty well set in terms of a system fostering military competence from generation to generation. As it was they did make plenty of mistakes in 1914 that kept the war going, but for the really catastrophic military incompetence beyond OTL you'd need some structural changes going back pretty far that would create a ton of butterflies that might prevent WW1 or even the formation of Germany.

i agree for me a really catastrophic military incompetence is unlikely, but the purpose of my thread is too find the maximum level of incompetence can get with a PoD after 1900 and that it would be the consequences, it could be a less funds for the millitary, lesser armement, a lesser leve lof tactic, a lesser competent Chief of the German General Staff, the outcome could be minimal (and would surely be), but i'm curious to see how the German army can perform the most badly possible and what would be the consequence.

Well, the most logical thing is their plans to work because the German high command wasn't to positive, they wanted to win soon and thought that a two front war was impossible to win. If I was the German High Command I would have fortied the Alsace-Loraine front way more, conquer Russia 1941 like and destabilize the Russian Empire. After that the Schlieffen plan would have made more sense, because the international order just saw the collapse of an empire that existed for 3 centuries. But that is a different plan. So I guess the answer you want is a successful home by Christmas Schlieffen scenario.

I don't want to see the German army to win, i want to see them perform even more badly than OTL
 
Well, the most logical thing is their plans to work because the German high command wasn't to positive, they wanted to win soon and thought that a two front war was impossible to win. If I was the German High Command I would have fortied the Alsace-Loraine front way more, conquer Russia 1941 like and destabilize the Russian Empire. After that the Schlieffen plan would have made more sense, because the international order just saw the collapse of an empire that existed for 3 centuries. But that is a different plan. So I guess the answer you want is a successful home by Christmas Schlieffen scenario.

Congrats. You're dragged out of your office by a lynch mob when your offensive crashes against Russian forts or stalls out as your men get exhausted or outrun their supplies as they can't outrun or manuver the Russkies and they bring up forces from further back in their much greater strategic depth to hit you in the teeth while you're vulnerable, and the French stop charging like idiots when they realize they aren't under threat or have to move you to get their heavy industry back (Assuming they even try in the first place, since you can't make giant forts and not be noticed).

But, it may be just the type of plan the challenge is calling for
 

Deleted member 1487

i agree for me a really catastrophic military incompetence is unlikely, but the purpose of my thread is too find the maximum level of incompetence can get with a PoD after 1900 and that it would be the consequences, it could be a less funds for the millitary, lesser armement, a lesser leve lof tactic, a lesser competent Chief of the German General Staff, the outcome could be minimal (and would surely be), but i'm curious to see how the German army can perform the most badly possible and what would be the consequence.
Worse than OTL? I guess have the war happen earlier before the start of some of the modernization in 1911. Part of the issue is that German incompetence was more than matched by that of Russian and French screw ups. You'd probably have an easier time finding a specific POD in a specific battle, like say a specific commander bungling a specific operation; in terms of the actual overall structure of the German military by 1900 given the political and general strategic situation the German army didn't have the luxury of being significantly more incompetent than they were IOTL, nor was the structure of it stretching back into the 19th century really allowing for such significant incompetence to rise beyond where they were, which was pretty significant as it was. After all the screw ups of 1914 set the stage for them to fail in their strategic offensive plans and get stuck in a 2 front war. They did IOTL pass on all sorts of increases in spending increases to help the army and spent on a naval arms race that enabled the Brits to view them as the enemy. The Kaiser did push policy that backed Germany into a corner and got them into the war in the first place. I don't think you're appreciating just how bad things were IOTL within the structure of what was possible. To get even worse would likely require an earlier POD than 1900 or ASBs
 
Congrats. You're dragged out of your office by a lynch mob when your offensive crashes against Russian forts or stalls out as your men get exhausted or outrun their supplies as they can't outrun or manuver the Russkies and they bring up forces from further back in their much greater strategic depth to hit you in the teeth while you're vulnerable, and the French stop charging like idiots when they realize they aren't under threat or have to move you to get their heavy industry back (Assuming they even try in the first place, since you can't make giant forts and not be noticed).

But, it may be just the type of plan the challenge is calling for

In your opinion if German High Command followed this plan, what would be the outcome ? How many year the war will last ? how far the German army will go in Russia ? , french spy were really sucessfull (french spies knew about the Schieffen plan since a long time before the war) but were not listen because French army didn't believed them , would the french army believe their spy if yes could the french and Russian planned a good counter-plan and take their time to overthrown German army in Alsace (time to mobilize their colonial troops) ?
 
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