A more centralized Norse faith?

Zioneer

Banned
Is there any way that Norse mythology, like Tengriism in that one TL, could become a centralized faith? What would be required to make it so? And what would be the effects of a Scandinavia (and probably Northern Germany) that remains "pagan"?
 
It would take alot of ambition and forethought from whoever attempts this. Such a cultural movement would have to take place well before the Viking Era. Probably even before the Frakish King Clovis' conversion to Christianity. Apart from Runic inscriptions, literacy was not high among the Germanic-Norse tribes cultural achievements, so Christian priests and monks filled out their niche in Germanic tribal society as bureaucrats and scribes, and made themselves indispensible to the likes of Clovis.

A codified written tome of scripture and/or a politically influential priestly order are necessary in espousing a definitive religious ideology that could encourage enthusiam. Germanics had their Volvas or shamanic practitioners, and it was frequently clan chiefs whom presided over religious occasions, but they did not possess single extensive corporate hierarchy, like the Christian Church, so they really had a common belief system without an ordained agency to operate it.

One thing worth considering is that before Charlemagne's conquest of Saxony, the tribal centre of Marklo (located within the Hoya district of Lower Saxony) was where annual meetings between the chieftains, re-affirm ancient laws, practice judgements, and decide whether or not warfare for that year was necessary. A new cultural revolution may be noticable if it begins there. It might also serve as a prototype for permanent institutions that could maintain the long-term goals of the nation.

In Norse society, these tribal gatherings were called "Things". The Christian Ecclesia, another name for the Church, is a term borrowed from ancient Greece, which was originally an assembly of the citizen-body when they needed to vote on important issues. So perhaps Germanic tribal assemblies could be the inspiration behind a professional cultic organization.
 
Wasn't there a TL several years ago ---
Young viking Boy on first raid gets captured, and ends up in Monastery, learns to Read, Write.
Freed by another raid, He returns to Norway, and begins traveling around Writing down all the Myths and Standardizing them.
He then gains some Disciples, and .........................
 

Zioneer

Banned
It would take alot of ambition and forethought from whoever attempts this. Such a cultural movement would have to take place well before the Viking Era. Probably even before the Frakish King Clovis' conversion to Christianity. Apart from Runic inscriptions, literacy was not high among the Germanic-Norse tribes cultural achievements, so Christian priests and monks filled out their niche in Germanic tribal society as bureaucrats and scribes, and made themselves indispensible to the likes of Clovis.

A codified written tome of scripture and/or a politically influential priestly order are necessary in espousing a definitive religious ideology that could encourage enthusiam. Germanics had their Volvas or shamanic practitioners, and it was frequently clan chiefs whom presided over religious occasions, but they did not possess single extensive corporate hierarchy, like the Christian Church, so they really had a common belief system without an ordained agency to operate it.

One thing worth considering is that before Charlemagne's conquest of Saxony, the tribal centre of Marklo (located within the Hoya district of Lower Saxony) was where annual meetings between the chieftains, re-affirm ancient laws, practice judgements, and decide whether or not warfare for that year was necessary. A new cultural revolution may be noticable if it begins there. It might also serve as a prototype for permanent institutions that could maintain the long-term goals of the nation.

In Norse society, these tribal gatherings were called "Things". The Christian Ecclesia, another name for the Church, is a term borrowed from ancient Greece, which was originally an assembly of the citizen-body when they needed to vote on important issues. So perhaps Germanic tribal assemblies could be the inspiration behind a professional cultic organization.

Oh yeah, I've heard about certain places being pagan religious centers. Wasn't Rugen another one?

In any case, what could cause the pagans to both start writing extensively, and stay pagan?
 
Oh yeah, I've heard about certain places being pagan religious centers. Wasn't Rugen another one?

In any case, what could cause the pagans to both start writing extensively, and stay pagan?

The trouble with Germanic society at the time was that it was still at a rural and tribal state. Extensive use of writing may be connected to the volume of economic activity and of course, urbanization. Which might not be such a realistic option for Germanic tribes even in the Common Era.

The Quran was apparently memorized by Muslims until it was compiled in written form on the orders of the Caliph Abu Bakr. The Jewish Torah may first have been written sometime during or after the Babylonian Captivity, so their articles of faith may have been learned by rote as well. And Celtic Druids are believed to have memorized all their traditions. So any new cult or spiritual organization after assuming political authority would make their followers memorize their religious code, before employing full use of the Elder Futhark.


Heres a scenario: In regard to the Marklo tribal centre in Saxony, perhaps as early as the 300-400's CE, some ambitious chieftain, after being elected as Herzog or duke of the Saxons to wage war, could hold onto his position by seizing Marklo and fortifying the settlement. With the support of prophetess-volvas (perhaps related to him or paid by him) could openly declare him a chosen warrior and law-giver of the Asa, while the Chieftain-Herzog could claim to have been visited by visions of Woden to unite his people (the Saxons), or some other purpose of intent. One of his "revelations" could be to introduce a new law code (secretly revised by him) to give to his followers. With a secure hold over Marklo, he could force tribute from the other clan chiefs, enhancing his own position. The Chieftain could leave behind him a permanent dynasty that combines the powers of warlord and high priest, and develop a disciplined hierarchy from his retainers to act as officiating clerics. Markets and shrines could be expanded in and around the settlement of Marklo to increase the number of visitors or residents. An increase in trade and pilgrimages to one tribal capital might lead to a trend of steady urbanization independent of the Christian societies in western Europe. At some point writing would take on more significance in regard to keeping trading records, which could lead to religious literature.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Hmm.. That gives me another question; have there ever been points in history where a pagan nation gets a lot of writers/text, but does not convert to the religion of the writers?
 
Hmm.. That gives me another question; have there ever been points in history where a pagan nation gets a lot of writers/text, but does not convert to the religion of the writers?

That depends on by what you mean by "Pagan". If your refering to all pagans in general, then it is worth noting that Romans and Greeks were a literate society of Pagans, and their conversion, contrary to popular belief, was rather slow and gradual, despite Christianity being adopted by the imperial authorities as the state religion. Hellenistic Polytheism seems to have endured on the margins of Byzantine society up until the 900's.

If one was to count the Zoroastrian Sassanid Persians, they had enough Christians living within their borders, but remained largely unconverted.

The Hindu states in India were part of an ancient culture thats been assailed by Christianity and Islamic forces, on and off, for hundreds of years, and that religion survives to this day.

But if you're refering to Norse/Germanic, Slavic, Celtic or Turkic Polytheisms, most of these were pre-literate tribal cultures whose leaders, desirous of total and permanent authority within their community, were willing to adopt Christian clerics as auxilliaries in their political system, as well as to get themselves on a favourable footing with their wealthier Christian neighbours (such examples as the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms with the Merovingian-era Franks). At tribalistic state of cultural development, they were quite unprepared to protect their religions from missionary activity. Germanic Pagans did not have a "Church" organization. They did not have their own holy scripture, and there were no real long-term secular authorities strong or determined enough to uphold and protect their ethnic religion from outsiders in OTL history.

Like I said, one would have to allow for the beginnings of a state-level society in northern Germany to occur before the collapse of the western Roman Empire in the 400's CE. A good long time before Clovis converts to Catholicism.
 
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Hmm.. That gives me another question; have there ever been points in history where a pagan nation gets a lot of writers/text, but does not convert to the religion of the writers?

West Africa before the Jihadi states and colonialism.

Eastern Asia ('the orient') could be considered 'pagan' in that they're not Abrahamic.

Some Polynesians like Hawai'i and the Māori also comes to mind.

That's it off the top of my head. So it does happen, but not very often. And usually in places with a very strong religious tradition of its own already in place.
 
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