A Mayan or Incan Superpower-In The 19th Century

If the POD is far enough into the past, we can reasonably believe that they develop new technology on their own. After all, new technologies come about when the right idea occurs to the right person (a fact that is often ignored in AH), so the Butterfly Effect could allow for huge changes.
With a PoD far enough back you can certainly accomplish almost anything, but a PoD a couple thousand years before Columbus is probably going to result in a completely unrecognizable America by the time Europe establishes contact with them, which wasn't what the OP was aiming for. Also, saying that all technological innovation requires is a person having an idea is a gross oversimplification.

The Incans probably have the best chance out of any American civilization of surviving; they're more developed in military and infrastructure technology, and have the benefit of a reasonably isolated and defensible location. If they can fend off the initial conquistadors trade relations might start up, and I could certainly see England or France propping up the Inca and helping them develop in order to cause troulbe for Spain. The Incans as an important regional power by the 19th century is tricky, but doable.
 
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For the Incas a solution would be to build a "viral wall".

The Andean hemorrhagic fever is a viral disease akin to the Bolivian hemorrhagic fever but more virulent. Its natural reservoir is the guinea pig, which is ubiquitous in the andean region and a major source of food. As a result all natives are exposed to the virus during infancy, roughly 5% die from it, even with hereditary immunity.

When the Andean hemorrhagic fever infects an unprotected individual - an European for instance - the result is an ebola-like disease with a fatality rate of 95%.

The first time spanish conquistadores met the armies de Hiyæcuter (The bronze age empire founded around 1250) by zaparoan speaking tribesmen following the collapse of the Central Andean Culture), they won spectacularly... before dying in a rather messy way.

Hiyæcuter and its sucessor states after its collapse during the late 17th century, had time to import technologies and cultural items from through occasional contacts with portuguese colonies. From time to time the contact became to close and the colony just evaporated.

Among the imports was the black rat, to which the virus quickly adapted. A fact hardly anybody noticed... until the Red Death of 1754
 
Indeed, something that facsinates me is how quickly the Empire developed. It parallels Rome really, in the sense that they started out as a single city and expanded, except that the Incas did it less violently.

I wonder what it would look like if Pizarro hadn't come along.

What I find fascinationg about the Incas, is how young the empire was at the time of european contact. Their major expansion only started in the 1440s!

Unlike many other empires who had cultural investments in their setups and solutions, the Incas had only recently figured out, or were still figuring out answers to basic problems. That held potential for adaptivity to the europeans.
 
I just don't see the Americas producing an indigenous civilization capable of becoming a world power in the 19th century. There is no way Mesoamerican or Andean civilizations, left undisturbed, would develop the sciences, basic technologies, imperial bureaucracies, and world view to rival European, Islamic, or Asian states in the 1500-1800 period. People need to realize that the Americas were literally thousands of years behind Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and even parts of Africa in the invention/adoption of basic technologies.

While I agree that the Native Americans aren't going to produce a superpower that quicky, I disagree with the notion of comparing New Word and Old World development along such clear-cut lines. The Old World never had any "stone age" civilizations rivaling the Mesoamericans, the Andeans, or even the Mississippians for that matter.
 
How could the Mayans or Incas have survived to create a South American empire that would last up to the 19th Century? Perhaps Spain for some reason concentrates on Africa instead of the New World for conquests and gold...

Could this empire have reached into Mexico by the time of the Mexican-American War?
Hmm... Long shot but if you have the Inca emperor convert to Christianity (under duress from Conquistadors probably) it may be possible to establish the Inca empire as a vassel state of Spain rather than directly ruled territory. A few centuries time have spain's empire crumble and the Inca state or fragment thereof establish true independance... of cause, in that case we're probably talking about a heavily westernised state with litte cultural links to the pre-Columbian Inca.
 
With a PoD far enough back you can certainly accomplish almost anything, but a PoD a couple thousand years before Columbus is probably going to result in a completely unrecognizable America by the time Europe establishes contact with them, which wasn't what the OP was aiming for. Also, saying that all technological innovation requires is a person having an idea is a gross oversimplification.

It is a simplification, but it is at least partly true. Maybe not all technological innovation, but certainly a good deal of it.

I have a TL that I'm considering working on that actually has the POD that was mentioned. It probably won't get written any time soon, though.
 
Few months ago I was involved in a RPG nation simulation game. But that round was not a regular round but instead was a twist. They had an Inca Empire survive into modern times.

Below is the info. they made up for the Inca Empires survival into modern times. The person who ran the Inca Empire managed not to get couped. He really turned it into a powerful nation considering they still owned people. The player playing the Sepa Inca even sent a fleet to europe.

This is the info.. Game took place in year 1990.
The Inca Empire fought a civil war which ended in a crushing victory for the Sapa Inca Huascar in 1533. The Empire began to rebuild and consolidate power amongst reluctant recent additions.

Spain sent a few missions to this area. The first, Francisco Pizarro sank off the coast of Central America in 1534, possibly as a result of a tropical storm. The second, headed by Juan Degamo, arrived in 1544 to find a well-consolidated and organized state. He and his troops were unable to rally support from natives against the Empire and were slaughtered in December of the same year.

Following this defeat, Spanish forces stayed from the region, untill the 17th century, when their territory had surrounded the Incan nation. The Incans, weakened by small outbreaks of small pox, were quickly pushed from their southern territory in 1605 and paid huge reparations to end the war.

The Empire continued to face mounting deaths from disease, but was stymied when a captured missionary revealed a treatment, which was risky but often worked: nasal insufflation of powdered smallpox scabs. This treatment was ordered throughtout the Empire and the Inca's excellent road system insured that it spread quickly. This reduced deaths significantly and by 1630 the Empire was organized enough to mount a campaign to the south which captured much of their original territory, at which time the advance slowed to a stalemate. While technically superior the Spanish had only 20,000 troop available compared to the 80,000 Inca.

Secretive trade with Portugese cities in Brazil brought cannons and rifles to the Incas in 1657 which were used to supplement the general armies. The ceasefire pervaded however, due to increased Spanish forces on the line at 45,000 men vs. the now 100,000 Inca. Britain provided minimal aid to the Incas by sending men to help them set up major industries and by 1692 the Incas were producing their own weaponry. At this time they began to take the advantage and at the historic battle of La Paz routed the entire Spanish force, sending them into a mad retreat back to Asuncion and making significant gains before accepting a Spanish truce. In the captured territory, most Incas had been wiped out by disease and forces labour. Spanish who lived in the area became the new bottom class of society, mestizos were also shunned though not nearly so badly.

The Inca fleet was commisioned in 1752, but did not have enough power to break a Spanish blockade untill 1805 (Spain was losing her possessions) when Britain threatened to commit itself with the Incas.

Inca supplied arms to the rebels in Venezuela and Argentina and had generally good relations with them.

The Inca Empire remained neutral in every major conflict of the 20th century save World War II, where a small regiment and naval force aided British troops.

Government

Federal Monarchy headed by the Sapa Inca
A lesser official known as the Hurin also aids in ruling.
Current Sapa Inca: .Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui

Provinces: Chinchasuyu (NW), Antisuyu (NE), Contisuyu (SW), Collasuyu (SE).
These provinces are lead by governers, who are members of the ancient ruling nobels. They are trained in Cuzco to rule under the Inca system of government. They are all related to the Sapa Inca through marriages and children.

Politics

The Sapa Inca is believed to be the direct decendent of Inti, the Sun God. He rules with absolute power, but is generally benevolent.

The provincial governors are responsible for overseeing local officials, who oversee the agri-mining businesses, which are government led. A seperate chain of command exists for military and religion. Local officials insure that the ancient tradition of Mita is still met. At one time a lifetime requirement, Mita has been adapted to affect those aged from 17-22 in urban areas while the old cycle continues for farms. Mita is required public service (projects, military, etc.)

Economy

The economy is strong, having been developed by a stable government for years. Cuzco contains a number of financial centres and the development of oil infrastructure in the South has led to wealth for most people.

The nation is socialist with communal leanings. The Mita (see above) and tax rates have kept income relatively equal amongst people of the same caste, though the Inca (now considered all origial natives of the empire) have the most wealth, while mestizos fill the middle class, and the Europeans are low class. Many Spanish continue to live in slavery.

Demographics

Capital: Cuzco

Official Language: Quecha (official), English, various native, Spanish.

Health: NHS system, officially founded in 1955, though it existed in various forms before this.

Population: 86,325,989 (1990)

Pop. Breakdown
50% European (some 30% are slaves of Spanish decent, 10% are British)
30% Mestizo,
19% Inca (mixed)
1% Inca (original Cusco line)
>1% Other
Map of the Inca Empire according to that RGP game:

inca.jpg
 
Few months ago I was involved in a RPG nation simulation game. But that round was not a regular round but instead was a twist. They had an Inca Empire survive into modern times.

Below is the info. they made up for the Inca Empires survival into modern times. The person who ran the Inca Empire managed not to get couped. He really turned it into a powerful nation considering they still owned people. The player playing the Sepa Inca even sent a fleet to europe.

This is the info.. Game took place in year 1990.
Map of the Inca Empire according to that RGP game:

inca.jpg

The demographic information doesn't make sense. "Unmixed" Europeans are definately far, far from the majority in any of those regions in OTL, while the native Quechua would make up a much larger percentage of the population, and the Aymara seem to be ignored altogether.
 
It is very easy to get an intact Maya state in 19th century! 20th, too: a Maya state existed in OTL in 20th century.

Tayasal lasted through 16th century and most of 17th as a completely intact heathen Maya state with temples et cetera. Europaean illnesses would have reached there, Spaniards sent missions there that were rebuffed, and military attacks were also defeated. Only in 1697 did the Spaniards build ships on the lake and conquer the kingdom.

And in late 17th century, the English started to trade on the coast of British Honduras. There were a number of wars between England and Great Britain and Spain in 18th century: Spanish Succession, Jenkins´ Ear, Seven Years, American Revolutionary, Napoleonic...

It should not make a big butterfly for the Spaniards to find Tayasal defended by Mayas wielding English guns and boats and under protection of bastions they have built under guidance of English engineers.

OTL, Tayasal did fall in 1697. In 1847, a big Maya rebellion in eastern Yucatan next to British Honduras created an independent stated that lasted till 1901.

So... if Kingdom of Tayasal modernizes late 17th, early 18th century, could you have 18th century Kingdom of Tayasal going on the offensive as a native ally of the British, building new heathen temples in fortresses newly built or in place of Catholic churches in the conquered Spanish towns?
 
It is very easy to get an intact Maya state in 19th century! 20th, too: a Maya state existed in OTL in 20th century.

Tayasal lasted through 16th century and most of 17th as a completely intact heathen Maya state with temples et cetera. Europaean illnesses would have reached there, Spaniards sent missions there that were rebuffed, and military attacks were also defeated. Only in 1697 did the Spaniards build ships on the lake and conquer the kingdom.

And in late 17th century, the English started to trade on the coast of British Honduras. There were a number of wars between England and Great Britain and Spain in 18th century: Spanish Succession, Jenkins´ Ear, Seven Years, American Revolutionary, Napoleonic...

It should not make a big butterfly for the Spaniards to find Tayasal defended by Mayas wielding English guns and boats and under protection of bastions they have built under guidance of English engineers.

OTL, Tayasal did fall in 1697. In 1847, a big Maya rebellion in eastern Yucatan next to British Honduras created an independent stated that lasted till 1901.

So... if Kingdom of Tayasal modernizes late 17th, early 18th century, could you have 18th century Kingdom of Tayasal going on the offensive as a native ally of the British, building new heathen temples in fortresses newly built or in place of Catholic churches in the conquered Spanish towns?
I agree entirely with this post and I think it is important to remember that Mayan and Incan or Quecha people could be considered a power after spanish "conquest."
 
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