A Matter of National Security

Part 0017
Start of Story 2

September 3, 1939


England and France declare war on Germany

September 5, 1939

The United States announces that it will remain neutral in this new European war. At the same time, a bill is introduced in the House that would allow other nations to buy arms from the US on the basis that they carry them back home. The only American involvement would be in loading the ship, but after that, it was up to that nation to transport the items safely back.

September 8th, 1939. Inside U-27

The commander of the U-Boat looked at his orders that just been issued. His sub was to cease all immediate operations and then meet up with the Graf Spee in the Azores. The commander had puzzled over the sudden change in course, but orders were orders. He could feel the shift in the engines as U-27 changed its position to move southwards.
 

Geon

Donor
September 5, 1939

The United States announces that it will remain neutral in this new European war. At the same time, a bill is introduced in the House that would allow other nations to buy arms from the US on the basis that they carry them back home. The only American involvement would be in loading the ship, but after that, it was up to that nation to transport the items safely back.

September 8th, 1939. Inside U-27

The commander of the U-Boat looked at his orders that just been issued. His sub was to cease all immediate operations and then meet up with the Graf Spee in the Azores. The commander had puzzled over the sudden change in course, but orders were orders. He could feel the shift in the engines as U-27 changed its position to move southwards.
So, instead of the Battle of the River Plate we may have the Battle of New York Harbor or the Battle of the Hudson River?:eek:
 
So, instead of the Battle of the River Plate we may have the Battle of New York Harbor or the Battle of the Hudson River?:eek:
That's one way for the Germans to really make the US not in favor of them. Why some of the coastal defences may accidentally hit the German raider during routine gunnery practice
 
Part 0018
September 9th, 1939

U-37 is also issued orders to meet up with the Graf Spee and U-27 in their holding position near the Azores.

September 17th, 1939

The Soviet Union invades Poland from the east, sealing the country's fate. Elements of the Polish government start to transfer to Romania, bringing whatever valuables they cam. The aircraft carrier HMS Courageous is sunk by U-29.

September 26th, 1939

Graf Spee and its submarine escorts are finally given the order to commence attacks on allied shipping.
 
So I wonder with the Pennsylvania Turnpike under construction I wonder if that might have the goverment start planning their own system to improve highway in mountainous areas?
 
Eh.. Aircraft carriers are not the order of the day in late 30s in the west as much as they think the battle wagon is the key piece. What changes this before the war? It really took the Japanese proving the worth of the carrier to change the mindset of the west.

So great more battle wagons...
 

Driftless

Donor
The US was already committed to carriers as a key weapon early in the 30's, but depending on how the Graf Spee and other German surface raiders do, there may be more congressional push for cruisers or fast battleships to counter that threat.....

Of course, if the U-boats working in harness with the Graf Spee sink some British or French warships this early in the war, then what would the response be?

There's an element of human nature that responds to immediate stimulus - this minute's threat - even if other threats down the road are bigger.
 
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Eh.. Aircraft carriers are not the order of the day in late 30s in the west as much as they think the battle wagon is the key piece. What changes this before the war? It really took the Japanese proving the worth of the carrier to change the mindset of the west.

So great more battle wagons...
Take a look at the US 2 Ocean Navy Bill (pre-Pearl Harbor, pre-Demonstration project)

18 Fleet carriers
7 battleships
6 Big cruisers

which if there was no war, and everything built out as expected, would have given the US a fleet of

24 Fleet carriers (18 2 Ocean Navy, Wasp, 3 Yorktown, 2 Lexington)
1 Experimental fleet carrier (Ranger)

11 modern battleships ( 2 North Carolina, 4 South Dakota, 5 Montana)
6 modern battle cruisers (6 Iowa)
6 White Elephants (6 Alaska)
3 post Jutland battleships (Colorado class)

9 Standards pre-Jutland that are getting up there in age and capability.

The modern big gun ship count is 17 reasonably thought out ships and 6 white elephants vs 21 or 22 (depends on how you count WASP) modern fleet carriers. The big difference are the hull counts of the non-modern ships.

The USN was going carrier heavy even before Pearl Harbor.
 
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Part 0019
September 27th, 1939. Chicago, Illinois

Quentin Zatorski put the last letter in the mailbox. Those letters would eventually reach his relatives back home in Ohio where they could read about all his exploits as a trainee at Naval Air Station Glenview. Quentin had done what he'd once thought off as impossible, he had survived elimination training and was now being transferred down to NAS Pensacola. He now had to hurry to the station before he missed his train. As he hurried through the streets, his mind began to wander. Pensacola would be a different beast than anything else he'd been through, but at least the weather would be nicer. Having grown up in Cleveland, he knew more than he wanted to know about winter and now he was looking forward to an almost tropical climate.
Those thoughts carried him all the way to the train station, where he hurried to get on and find a seat. After being successful in his quest, he stowed away his luggage and made himself comfortable for the trip that was ahead of him.

October 1st, 1939. Middle of the Atlantic

The engineer stood on the deck of the SS Beaverford, breathing in fresh air for once. His job of making sure that the engines stayed running smoothly was hell on the lungs so it was nice for him to go above deck for a while. The Beaverford had docked in New York while its cargo hold had been filled up American-made planes. The planes weren't for the British, they had been ordered by the elements of the Polish government who were now reaching Paris in order to train a new airforce.
The Beaverford was part of the first convoy in this second war. 20 merchant ships, 18 British and 2 French, sailed across the Atlantic while being escorted by two destroyers, HMCS St. Laurent and HMCS Saguenay. Eventually, they would link up with two Royal Navy heavy cruisers for the second leg of the journey. The engineer allowed himself one more deep breath before he started to walk back to his post.
He never got there.
U-37 fired two torpedos in quick succession. Both found their mark in the Beaverford. The ship was almost broken in two as it quickly sank into the sea. U-27 sank another merchant ship. The two destroyers quickly responded with depth charges, but that action was disrupted by the arrival of the Graf Spee. When compared with the destroyers, the pocket battleship looked like a foreboding steel cliff and it had the guns to match. A salvo of 11-inch shells drenched the St. Laurent in seawater. Blast and shrapnel carried unlucky men off the deck. The Saguenay rushed to help, but a barrage of 5.9-inch shells tore apart the ship. U-37 surfaced and her crew rushed the 105 mm deck gun to use against the now sinking destroyer. The St. Laurent was now alone between three enemy ships.
Realizing that there was no way out, her skipper ordered the crew to set the ammunition to blow and then run for the lifeboats. The St. Laurent went down with her commander on board. The rest of the crew were eventually picked up by the U-boats and sent to be prisoners on the Altmark. Throughout the remainder of the day, the rest of the convoy was picked off the Graf Spee. Some ships did manage to escape to Bermuda, but for all intents and purposes, the first engagement in the Battle of the Atlantic was a German victory.
 
Part 0020
October 2nd, 1939

The Admiralty meets with the heads of the French Navy in London. The loss of the first convoy in the war is unacceptable. Smaller, single ship on ship actions was expected and could be dealt with eventually, but allowing the Germans to freely roam the Atlantic isn't a smart choice by any metrics. A task force is quickly cobbled together with one objective: Sink the Graff Spee.

The Congress of American Republics has an emergency meeting in Panama, where they set up a neutrality zone stretching 300 miles out to sea. All warships from the belligerent nations are asked to stay out of this zone, and should any be found in said zone without permission, military force could be used to stop them. Realistically speaking, this meant that the US Navy would take the bulk of patrol duty. Older destroyers are pressed back into service for this feat.

Back in the USA, FDR's limited national emergency was in full swing. 20 new Gleaves-class destroyers had been ordered. The Navy was authorized for a manpower expansion to 213,000 men. The 5th and 6th Infantry Divisions are reactivated.

October 3rd, 1939. 12:00 Fort Adams, Rhode Island.

The men of Battery Greene-Edgerton were on high alert crewing their guns. They were part of the Rhode Island National Guard's 243rd Coast Artillery Regiment and had been sent to reinforce Fort Adams. The reports of the Germans' antics in the Atlantic had reignited the fear of shore bombardment. The captain in charge had scoffed at the idea. There was no way the Germans were stupid enough to let their ships come this close to the American mainland, let alone allow them to actually attack. But then again, he never thought that they were stupid enough to start another war. So now here they were, ready to face an enemy that in all likelihood would never come.
 
October 1st, 1939. Middle of the Atlantic...
..the first convoy in this second war. 20 merchant ships, 18 British and 2 French, sailed across the Atlantic while being escorted by two destroyers,
I question the use of a convoy (unless its a high priority troop convoy that would have BB escort) this far out this early?
Eventually, they would link up with two Royal Navy heavy cruisers for the second leg of the journey.
Why are they not with the convoy if it is at risk from a PBB? And what leg, they are out west near "Bermuda" so would be more in line for CL/CA than DD escort....?
U-37 fired two torpedos in quick succession. Both found their mark in the Beaverford. The ship was almost broken in two as it quickly sank into the sea. U-27 sank another merchant ship. The two destroyers quickly responded with depth charges, but that action was disrupted by the arrival of the Graf Spee. When compared with the destroyers, the pocket battleship looked like a foreboding steel cliff and it had the guns to match. A salvo of 11-inch shells drenched the St. Laurent in seawater. Blast and shrapnel carried unlucky men off the deck. The Saguenay rushed to help, but a barrage of 5.9-inch shells tore apart the ship. U-37 surfaced and her crew rushed the 105 mm deck gun to use against the now sinking destroyer. The St. Laurent was now alone between three enemy ships.
Realizing that there was no way out, her skipper ordered the crew to set the ammunition to blow and then run for the lifeboats. The St. Laurent went down with her commander on board. The rest of the crew were eventually picked up by the U-boats and sent to be prisoners on the Altmark. Throughout the remainder of the day, the rest of the convoy was picked off the Graf Spee. Some ships did manage to escape to Bermuda, but for all intents and purposes, the first engagement in the Battle of the Atlantic was a German victory.
I just question your fight,
- Uboats are to slow to fight in concert with a PBB......
- Attacking a convoy with two proper DDs is going to be hard (in daylight and if not the PBB part is wrong)
- Not spotting the PBB?
- Why are the DDs not making smoke and hiding the convoy?
- Why would any DD scuttle, RN DDs would fight and try to buy time for the convoy or CAs to arrive, anyway she cant be trapped "between three enemy ships" as she can easily kill any surfaced Uboat in a single salvo.......(well actually a single 4.7" hit but they might miss a few times)
- Uboat pick up prisoners rather than PBB or Altmark herself?
-.........
 
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Part 0021
October 3rd, 1939. 14:30. 450 miles North of Puerto Rico.

The PBY flew over the vast expanse of the Atlantic. Now that the Navy was patrolling the neutrality zone, flying boats were being used for aerial reconnaissance and maritime patrol. Officially they were out on a normal patrol, and if they just happened to find the German battleship that everyone was raving about, then all the better. The right-side waist gunner leaned out a little more for an even better view. Something was there in the horizon. There had been reports of a couple of sinkings in the area so this could be their lucky day. The pilot also saw the southbound ship and he brought the plane down a little for a better view.

The plane made two passes around the ship. Everything looked calm as the unidentified vessel made no sudden shifts in its course or even move its guns. The attempt at normalcy didn't convince anyone. This clearly wasn't a US ship nor did it look like it belonged to the British or the French. The radio operator transmitted their findings back to base as the PBY turned to head back to the mainland.
 
I question the use of a convoy (unless its a high priority toop convy that would have BB escort) this far out this early?
It was a convoy bringing over materials bought from the US over to France

Why are they not with the convy is the risk is a PBB?
Because the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee would be in the Atlantic ready to pounce on unsuspecting ships

I just question your fight,
- Uboats are to slow to fight in concert with a PBB......
- Attacking a convoy with two proper DDs is going to be hard (in daylight and if not the PBB part is wrong)
- Not spotting the PBB?
- Why are the DDs not making smoke and hiding the convoy?
- Why would any DD scuttle, RN DDs would fight and try to buy time for the convoy or CAs to arrive, anyway she cant be trapped "between three enemy ships" as she can easily kill any surfaced Uboat in a single salvo.......(well actually a single 4.7" hit but they might miss a few times)
-.........
The battle was an ambush. The U-boats had stalked up to the right position before striking. The initial shock of the submarine attacks was to distract the destroyers from the PBB. After that it was a sudden clash of ships and fire. The Gra Spee's initial bombardment crippled the Saguenay. And the U-boats hadn't left their positions, that's why U-37 surfaced again to aid in the fight. The St. Laurent was in a lose-lose situation. If the ship continued fighting, it would've been sunk by either U-27 or the Graf Spee, any damage dealt to U-37 wouldn't be worth it. At the end of the day, the urge to save the crew from dying trumped the urge to go in a blaze of glory. The DD was sunk, but the crew was picked up and sent to the Altmark as POWs. The merchant ships in the convoy were, but the Graf Spee was faster and it hunted down most of them, but some ships did manage to avoid destruction and make back safely to Bermuda or Nova Scotia
 
It was a convoy bringing over materials bought from the US over to France
But early on out in Atlantic the escorts would break off and let ships sail by themselves as RN did not have the escorts to do full convoys and the threat was low, not how few Uboats operated out in ocean early war, look at 1939 maps on https://uboat.net/boats.htm for example.
Because the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee would be in the Atlantic ready to pounce on unsuspecting ships
OK resonable
The battle was an ambush. The U-boats had stalked up to the right position before striking. The initial shock of the submarine attacks was to distract the destroyers from the PBB. After that it was a sudden clash of ships and fire. The Gra Spee's initial bombardment crippled the Saguenay. And the U-boats hadn't left their positions, that's why U-37 surfaced again to aid in the fight. The St. Laurent was in a lose-lose situation. If the ship continued fighting, it would've been sunk by either U-27 or the Graf Spee, any damage dealt to U-37 wouldn't be worth it. At the end of the day, the urge to save the crew from dying trumped the urge to go in a blaze of glory. The DD was sunk, but the crew was picked up and sent to the Altmark as POWs. The merchant ships in the convoy were, but the Graf Spee was faster and it hunted down most of them, but some ships did manage to avoid destruction and make back safely to Bermuda or Nova Scotia
The problem is why bother with the very slow u boats if you have Graf Spee v two DD you win anyway..... getting subs and surface ships to work together is nearly impossible as the Uboats are only a bit faster than the target convoy.....

RN/RCN crew would fight to the death every minute buys the merchants more chance to live and I repeat that a surfaced Uboat is nothing compared to a DD its 1x105 or 88 with a hand-held range finder and a small hull that cant take hits and still survive or dive to get home v 5x 120+mm with proper fire control and far more hull to take hits and live......
 
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What was the british decision on kgv-s cause their limitations were mostly down to treaty stats and nothing else asfar i can tell. Something like vanguard is my hope instead or just bigger and 15inchers is the least i would expect.
 
What was the british decision on kgv-s cause their limitations were mostly down to treaty stats and nothing else asfar i can tell. Something like vanguard is my hope instead or just bigger and 15inchers is the least i would expect.
by the POD in March 36 I think any new guns will be the OTL 14" quad, they might be able to go for a larger hull to get 12 guns (3xquad) and faster?

That and starting a earlier Vanguard might speed them up a bit but RN/GB did not ahve much spare capacity compaired to USN/US in late 30s so I would not expect much.
 
Im saying that kgv-s were designed around the treaty and the 14 inchers were trying to keep new usa battleships to that aswell by the way not for any logical freaking reason and were mostly a freaking treasury requirment . And quad mounts are kinda wtf , 3x3 15 inchers make more sense to be honest.

Also wouldnt brits build extra carrier or two compared to otl aswell or atleast get the light and escort carrier started earlier so they are of more use than otl.

If the treaty is dead i just cant see how otl kgv-s are built is my point and im asking what they ended up as. I know the author is doing mainly the american persepctive but i think it would help to know.
 
But early on out in Atlantic the escorts would break off and let ships sail by themselves as RN did not have the escorts to do full convoys and the threat was low, not how few Uboats operated out in ocean early war, look at 1939
Yes, but the British didn't know that there were little to no U-boats in the Atlantic, the same way the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee was in the Atlantic. Two DD's are more than enough to scare off a single U-boat, which is what they were expecting since HMS Courageous had been sunk by a U-boat back in September. And the two DD's would've turned around once they meet up with the heavy cruisers, but they never got there.

The problem is why bother with the very slow u boats if you have Graf Spee v two DD you win anyway..... getting subs and surface ships to work together is nearly impossible as the Uboats are only a bit faster than the target convoy.....

RN/RCN crew would fight to the death every minute buys the merchants more chance to live and I repeat that a surfaced Uboat is nothing compared to a DD its 1x105 or 88 with a hand-held range finder and a small hull that cant take hits and still survive or dive to get home v 5x 120+mm with proper fire control and far more hull to take hits and live......
ITTL, the USA is in a much better place to be exporting war materials to the allies. The two U-boats were sent to beef up the Graf Spee since the Germans were expecting many more enemy freighters to be crossing the ocean. The Graf Spee deliberately slows down to let the U-boats keep up, but for the ambush, the U-boats snuck up first and the Graf Spee followed.

The U-37 bit was a bit of rule of cool. The Saguenay was already starting to sink when U-37 surfaced and any hits scored by the 105mm shells wouldn't have mattered in the bigger picture as the destroyer was already dead. Another salvo from the Graf Spee would've sunk the St. Laurent anyway. That wouldn't have bought the merchant ships anyway. But going through the process of picking up and turning the sailors in POWs arguably brought more time for the ships then fighting to death would've.
 
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