Stripped down by shipping five of seven machine guns to Manilla? Still a strongarm scouting tank with two!
So, instead of the Battle of the River Plate we may have the Battle of New York Harbor or the Battle of the Hudson River?September 5, 1939
The United States announces that it will remain neutral in this new European war. At the same time, a bill is introduced in the House that would allow other nations to buy arms from the US on the basis that they carry them back home. The only American involvement would be in loading the ship, but after that, it was up to that nation to transport the items safely back.
September 8th, 1939. Inside U-27
The commander of the U-Boat looked at his orders that just been issued. His sub was to cease all immediate operations and then meet up with the Graf Spee in the Azores. The commander had puzzled over the sudden change in course, but orders were orders. He could feel the shift in the engines as U-27 changed its position to move southwards.
That's one way for the Germans to really make the US not in favor of them. Why some of the coastal defences may accidentally hit the German raider during routine gunnery practiceSo, instead of the Battle of the River Plate we may have the Battle of New York Harbor or the Battle of the Hudson River?
Take a look at the US 2 Ocean Navy Bill (pre-Pearl Harbor, pre-Demonstration project)Eh.. Aircraft carriers are not the order of the day in late 30s in the west as much as they think the battle wagon is the key piece. What changes this before the war? It really took the Japanese proving the worth of the carrier to change the mindset of the west.
So great more battle wagons...
I question the use of a convoy (unless its a high priority troop convoy that would have BB escort) this far out this early?October 1st, 1939. Middle of the Atlantic...
..the first convoy in this second war. 20 merchant ships, 18 British and 2 French, sailed across the Atlantic while being escorted by two destroyers,
Why are they not with the convoy if it is at risk from a PBB? And what leg, they are out west near "Bermuda" so would be more in line for CL/CA than DD escort....?Eventually, they would link up with two Royal Navy heavy cruisers for the second leg of the journey.
I just question your fight,U-37 fired two torpedos in quick succession. Both found their mark in the Beaverford. The ship was almost broken in two as it quickly sank into the sea. U-27 sank another merchant ship. The two destroyers quickly responded with depth charges, but that action was disrupted by the arrival of the Graf Spee. When compared with the destroyers, the pocket battleship looked like a foreboding steel cliff and it had the guns to match. A salvo of 11-inch shells drenched the St. Laurent in seawater. Blast and shrapnel carried unlucky men off the deck. The Saguenay rushed to help, but a barrage of 5.9-inch shells tore apart the ship. U-37 surfaced and her crew rushed the 105 mm deck gun to use against the now sinking destroyer. The St. Laurent was now alone between three enemy ships.
Realizing that there was no way out, her skipper ordered the crew to set the ammunition to blow and then run for the lifeboats. The St. Laurent went down with her commander on board. The rest of the crew were eventually picked up by the U-boats and sent to be prisoners on the Altmark. Throughout the remainder of the day, the rest of the convoy was picked off the Graf Spee. Some ships did manage to escape to Bermuda, but for all intents and purposes, the first engagement in the Battle of the Atlantic was a German victory.
It was a convoy bringing over materials bought from the US over to FranceI question the use of a convoy (unless its a high priority toop convy that would have BB escort) this far out this early?
Because the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee would be in the Atlantic ready to pounce on unsuspecting shipsWhy are they not with the convy is the risk is a PBB?
The battle was an ambush. The U-boats had stalked up to the right position before striking. The initial shock of the submarine attacks was to distract the destroyers from the PBB. After that it was a sudden clash of ships and fire. The Gra Spee's initial bombardment crippled the Saguenay. And the U-boats hadn't left their positions, that's why U-37 surfaced again to aid in the fight. The St. Laurent was in a lose-lose situation. If the ship continued fighting, it would've been sunk by either U-27 or the Graf Spee, any damage dealt to U-37 wouldn't be worth it. At the end of the day, the urge to save the crew from dying trumped the urge to go in a blaze of glory. The DD was sunk, but the crew was picked up and sent to the Altmark as POWs. The merchant ships in the convoy were, but the Graf Spee was faster and it hunted down most of them, but some ships did manage to avoid destruction and make back safely to Bermuda or Nova ScotiaI just question your fight,
- Uboats are to slow to fight in concert with a PBB......
- Attacking a convoy with two proper DDs is going to be hard (in daylight and if not the PBB part is wrong)
- Not spotting the PBB?
- Why are the DDs not making smoke and hiding the convoy?
- Why would any DD scuttle, RN DDs would fight and try to buy time for the convoy or CAs to arrive, anyway she cant be trapped "between three enemy ships" as she can easily kill any surfaced Uboat in a single salvo.......(well actually a single 4.7" hit but they might miss a few times)
-.........
But early on out in Atlantic the escorts would break off and let ships sail by themselves as RN did not have the escorts to do full convoys and the threat was low, not how few Uboats operated out in ocean early war, look at 1939 maps on https://uboat.net/boats.htm for example.It was a convoy bringing over materials bought from the US over to France
OK resonableBecause the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee would be in the Atlantic ready to pounce on unsuspecting ships
The problem is why bother with the very slow u boats if you have Graf Spee v two DD you win anyway..... getting subs and surface ships to work together is nearly impossible as the Uboats are only a bit faster than the target convoy.....The battle was an ambush. The U-boats had stalked up to the right position before striking. The initial shock of the submarine attacks was to distract the destroyers from the PBB. After that it was a sudden clash of ships and fire. The Gra Spee's initial bombardment crippled the Saguenay. And the U-boats hadn't left their positions, that's why U-37 surfaced again to aid in the fight. The St. Laurent was in a lose-lose situation. If the ship continued fighting, it would've been sunk by either U-27 or the Graf Spee, any damage dealt to U-37 wouldn't be worth it. At the end of the day, the urge to save the crew from dying trumped the urge to go in a blaze of glory. The DD was sunk, but the crew was picked up and sent to the Altmark as POWs. The merchant ships in the convoy were, but the Graf Spee was faster and it hunted down most of them, but some ships did manage to avoid destruction and make back safely to Bermuda or Nova Scotia
by the POD in March 36 I think any new guns will be the OTL 14" quad, they might be able to go for a larger hull to get 12 guns (3xquad) and faster?What was the british decision on kgv-s cause their limitations were mostly down to treaty stats and nothing else asfar i can tell. Something like vanguard is my hope instead or just bigger and 15inchers is the least i would expect.
Yes, but the British didn't know that there were little to no U-boats in the Atlantic, the same way the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee was in the Atlantic. Two DD's are more than enough to scare off a single U-boat, which is what they were expecting since HMS Courageous had been sunk by a U-boat back in September. And the two DD's would've turned around once they meet up with the heavy cruisers, but they never got there.But early on out in Atlantic the escorts would break off and let ships sail by themselves as RN did not have the escorts to do full convoys and the threat was low, not how few Uboats operated out in ocean early war, look at 1939
ITTL, the USA is in a much better place to be exporting war materials to the allies. The two U-boats were sent to beef up the Graf Spee since the Germans were expecting many more enemy freighters to be crossing the ocean. The Graf Spee deliberately slows down to let the U-boats keep up, but for the ambush, the U-boats snuck up first and the Graf Spee followed.The problem is why bother with the very slow u boats if you have Graf Spee v two DD you win anyway..... getting subs and surface ships to work together is nearly impossible as the Uboats are only a bit faster than the target convoy.....
RN/RCN crew would fight to the death every minute buys the merchants more chance to live and I repeat that a surfaced Uboat is nothing compared to a DD its 1x105 or 88 with a hand-held range finder and a small hull that cant take hits and still survive or dive to get home v 5x 120+mm with proper fire control and far more hull to take hits and live......