A Longer Tudor Dynasty

BillieJeanDab

What would be the most plausible way to keep the Tudors on the throne after 1603:

  • A surviving Edmund, Duke of Somerset
  • Edward VI surviving after 1553
  • Edward VI marrying in 1552 and producing issue before his death in 1553
  • Henry VIII producing an heir with one of his wives
  • Henry VII remarrying after the death of Elizabeth of York
 

Lalli

With those options easiest might be survival of Edward VI. One change would be surviving of prince Arthur.
 
Olligarchy

Olligarchy

Yeah, Edward VI surviving should be easier so long as he gets some proper treatment. Could also be... interesting on religious grounds.
 

Just a Rube

Edward VI surviving, for sure. It also means that Elizabeth probably gets married off to someone, which creates another line of succession (although her kids wouldn't be "Tudors").
 

Shiva

Actually what you could do is two POD's, one is that Elizabeth of York's last child was born a boy and lived to adulthood and had children. To be specific Katherine Tudor (1503) was born 'Jasper Tudor' and lived and had children of his own.

Having a younger brother might make Henry less nervous about the survival of his dynasty, but knowing his ego he'd still prefer to having his line stay on the throne and not his brother, the 'new' Duke of York.
 
Jonathan

Jonathan

BillieJeanDab said:
What would be the most plausible way to keep the Tudors on the throne after 1603:
  • A surviving Edmund, Duke of Somerset
Click to expand...

Prince Edmund, Duke of Somerset, died at 15 months of unknown causes. Unknown causes can easily be butterflied away.

He is my supposed timeline of Prince Edmund.

4 April 1502, with the news of Prince Arthur's death reaching London, the 10-year-old Prince Henry, Duke of York, became the new Prince of Wales, while 26 month old, Prince Edmund, became third in line to the throne.

21 April 1509, his father, King Henry VII, dies aged 52, leaving 17-year-old, Prince Henry to succeeded him as King Henry VIII, with Edmund becoming his sole heir.

Potential wives for Edmund:
- Elizabeth Stafford, the eldest daughter of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and a lady-in-waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon
- Isabella of Austria, daughter of King Philip I and Queen Joanna of Castile and the sister of Emperor Charles V. King Philip I was a friend and role model of leadership to Henry VIII as well as his brother-in-law.
- Dorothea of Denmark, daughter of King Frederick I of Denmark and Anna of Brandenburg
- Isabella of Portugal first daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and his second wife, Maria of Aragon, she was also a niece of Catherine of Aragon.
- Beatrice of Portugal second daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and his second wife, Maria of Aragon,
, she was also a niece of Catherine of Aragon
- Claude of France, daughter of Louis XII, inherited the Duchy of Brittany from her mother, Anne
- Susanna of Bavaria, daughter of Albert IV, Duke of Bavaria, and Kunigunde of Austria - making her grandaughter of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III and Eleanor of Portugal.
- Ursula Pole, the only daughter of Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, the last surviving member of the Plantagenet dynasty
- Anne Boleyn, daughter of Thomas Boleyn, 1st Earl of Wiltshire and niece of Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk.
- Anne de Laval, Viscountess of Thouars, daughter of Guy XVI de Laval, count of Laval, and of Charlotte of Aragon, Princess of Taranto. As a descendant of Frederick of Naples, Edmund could support her claim to the throne of the Kingdom of Naples.
 

BillieJeanDab

Shiva said:
Actually what you could do is two POD's, one is that Elizabeth of York's last child was born a boy and lived to adulthood and had children. To be specific Katherine Tudor (1503) was born 'Jasper Tudor' and lived and had children of his own.

Having a younger brother might make Henry less nervous about the survival of his dynasty, but knowing his ego he'd still prefer to having his line stay on the throne and not his brother, the 'new' Duke of York.
Click to expand...

He'd definitely still want his own issue to succeed. So even with a younger brother he may get his Bluebeard reputation.

Jonathan said:
Prince Edmund, Duke of Somerset, died at 15 months of unknown causes. Unknown causes can easily be butterflied away.

He is my supposed timeline of Prince Edmund.

4 April 1502, with the news of Prince Arthur's death reaching London, the 10-year-old Prince Henry, Duke of York, became the new Prince of Wales, while 26 month old, Prince Edmund, became third in line to the throne.

21 April 1509, his father, King Henry VII, dies aged 52, leaving 17-year-old, Prince Henry to succeeded him as King Henry VIII, with Edmund becoming his sole heir.

Potential wives for Edmund:
- Elizabeth Stafford, the eldest daughter of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and a lady-in-waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon
- Isabella of Austria, daughter of King Philip I and Queen Joanna of Castile and the sister of Emperor Charles V. King Philip I was a friend and role model of leadership to Henry VIII as well as his brother-in-law.
- Dorothea of Denmark, daughter of King Frederick I of Denmark and Anna of Brandenburg
- Isabella of Portugal first daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and his second wife, Maria of Aragon, she was also a niece of Catherine of Aragon.
- Beatrice of Portugal second daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and his second wife, Maria of Aragon,
, she was also a niece of Catherine of Aragon
- Claude of France, daughter of Louis XII, inherited the Duchy of Brittany from her mother, Anne
- Susanna of Bavaria, daughter of Albert IV, Duke of Bavaria, and Kunigunde of Austria - making her grandaughter of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III and Eleanor of Portugal.
- Ursula Pole, the only daughter of Margaret Pole, 8th Countess of Salisbury, the last surviving member of the Plantagenet dynasty
- Anne Boleyn, daughter of Thomas Boleyn, 1st Earl of Wiltshire and niece of Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk.
- Anne de Laval, Viscountess of Thouars, daughter of Guy XVI de Laval, count of Laval, and of Charlotte of Aragon, Princess of Taranto. As a descendant of Frederick of Naples, Edmund could support her claim to the throne of the Kingdom of Naples.
Click to expand...

I think Isabella of Austria, Beatriz of Portugal, Anne de Laval, Elizabeth Stafford, and Ursula Pole are all viable choices for wives. Dorothea of Denmark would also be an interesting choice. Though with Anne de Laval, would Edmund press her claim to Naples if England is allied with Ferdinand?
 
Jonathan

Jonathan

BillieJeanDab said:
I think Isabella of Austria, Beatriz of Portugal, Anne de Laval, Elizabeth Stafford, and Ursula Pole are all viable choices for wives. Dorothea of Denmark would also be an interesting choice. Though with Anne de Laval, would Edmund press her claim to Naples if England is allied with Ferdinand?
Click to expand...
I like the idea of Prince Edmund falling in love with Lady Elizabeth, but being force to marring Isabella or Beatriz.

No love for Anne Boleyn?

I forgot that Ferdinand King of Aragon supported French conquer and control of Naples, so maybe lady Anne de Laval isn't the best.
 

BillieJeanDab

Jonathan said:
I like the idea of Prince Edmund falling in love with Lady Elizabeth, but being force to marring Isabella or Beatriz.

No love for Anne Boleyn?

I forgot that Ferdinand King of Aragon supported French conquer and control of Naples, so maybe lady Anne de Laval isn't the best.
Click to expand...

Part of me is saying Edmund would likely be married before Boleyn returns to court. She returned to England in 1521.

I think Edmund would probably most likely marry Infanta Beatriz, but maybe that's me wanting to bring back the old Anglo-Portuguese alliance.
 

isabella

No, Isabella of Austria and Isabella or Beatriz of Portugal are all bride only for a ruler or an heir, not for a junior Prince. Claude of France is out of discussion for both the reason of the others and the fact who if she had not a full brother she is the heiress of Brittany and no way she will marry a foreign (if she has a brother she is still the eldest daughter of the King of France so she need to marry a ruler or heir). Dorothea of Denmark, Anne de Laval, Susanna of Bavaria or maybe one of the French related Navarrese princesses are viable choices for a foreign match. Elizabeth Stafford, Anne Boleyn or another of her Howard relatives only if Henry wished an English match for his brother and either arrange it or give him the freedom to choice a suitable girl and Ursula is a very unlikely option. If Catherine and Henry are paranoid (and they are) an English match is the better choice (but no way Edmund will marry Ursula Pole)
 

BillieJeanDab

But Beatriz married the Duke of Savoy OTL. By 1520, Henry and Catherine only have Mary so it's apparent to everyone on the continent that Edmund's son, if and when he has one is going to succeed.

Anne de Laval is out because England isn't going to press her claim to Naples.

Dorothea of Denmark and Susanna of Bavaria are interesting choices, but what would make England look to them for a bride.

And why wouldn't he marry Ursula Pole? Elizabeth Stafford also had royal blood.
 

Shiva

You know I keep going back to my idea of Henry having a younger brother (right now I'm calling him Jasper), but I do have a question, if Henry only has a daughter (Mary) and he dies either before or during his attempt to annul his marriage to Catherine, would the throne go to Mary or his brother?
 

Lalli

Shiva said:
You know I keep going back to my idea of Henry having a younger brother (right now I'm calling him Jasper), but I do have a question, if Henry only has a daughter (Mary) and he dies either before or during his attempt to annul his marriage to Catherine, would the throne go to Mary or his brother?
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I am not sure if brother's name would be Jasper. It doesn't sound such name what royal family would use. I would suggest Edward.
 

Finbarr the Fair

Lalli said:
I am not sure if brother's name would be Jasper. It doesn't sound such name what royal family would use. I would suggest Edward.
Click to expand...
Jasper would be for the grandfather on the Tudor side, Margaret Beaufort's unlamented late husband. Possible name for a third son not expected to inherit the crown since Arthur wasn't really a traditional Emglish name either. Used before I think only because of the Brittany connection at the time for his father's branch of the Plantagenent dynasty.
 

Finbarr the Fair

Shiva said:
You know I keep going back to my idea of Henry having a younger brother (right now I'm calling him Jasper), but I do have a question, if Henry only has a daughter (Mary) and he dies either before or during his attempt to annul his marriage to Catherine, would the throne go to Mary or his brother?
Click to expand...
I think it would go to the daughter as sole heir of the monarch. The Monarch's brother would be next in line after along with his issue if she died childless as iOTL. But with an earlier accession and marriage that might not happen.
 

isabella

Finbarr the Fair said:
Jasper would be for the grandfather on the Tudor side, Margaret Beaufort's unlamented late husband. Possible name for a third son not expected to inherit the crown since Arthur wasn't really a traditional Emglish name either. Used before I think only because of the Brittany connection at the time for his father's branch of the Plantagenent dynasty.
Click to expand...
Wrong Tudor but in the end correct thinking. Jasper Tudor was the uncle (younger brother of his father Edmund), father figure and one of the major supporters of Henry VII so is not unthinkable who Henry will decide to call his latest son after his beloved uncle (considering he had already used Arthur, Henry, Edward and Edmund for his other sons and George, Richard, Thomas and John are not exactly good choices either Owen or Jasper can be used)...
 
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