A longer Shang and ancient Chinese monotheism

I was reading about how the defeat of the Shang by the Zhou (despite apparently superior Shang numbers) led to the eclipse of the previous Shang cult of Di, and it's replacement with the vaguer concept of Heaven (as well asthe concept of the Mandate of Heaven that was so important throughout Chinese history.

If the Zhou were defeated and Shang survived, could we see the Zhou Heaven concept lose it's cultural force, and instead the central Shang god Di retaining it's position? Over time, it could become a more developed belief system, eventually forming a Chinese source of monotheism. Oracles and the intercession of the ancestors played a heavy role, worshipers could not interact with Di directly, though it is conceivable that a concept of personal god could develop later. Perhaps, the power of the oracles could be opposed by a new development, akin to Egyptian Atenism.

On the political front, if the Shang survive but are weakened, and the Zhou are knocked for a turn, this could delay the process of unification of the region under a single polity. This might have butterfly effects, perhaps allowing for greater cultural and political consolidation in the Sanxingdui culture of what is now Sichuan, which could develop into a rival to Chinese civilization.

In a longer view, a monotheistic China might be less susceptible to the appeal of Buddhism, which would have big effects later down the line. On the other hand, foreign monotheistic faiths such as Zoroastrianism or Christianity (or rather, their ITTL analogues) might have greater success due to being more culturally familiar in some ways.

Any thoughts?
 
Well, first, I think Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam might not appear in such a world.

But, to answer the question, I assume you're getting rid of the hypothesis that Shang Di (or just Di) was the chief god of the Shang people and that Tian was the chief god of the Zhou people? I know the idea is rather old, but some people still think about it.
 
Well, first, I think Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam might not appear in such a world.

But, to answer the question, I assume you're getting rid of the hypothesis that Shang Di (or just Di) was the chief god of the Shang people and that Tian was the chief god of the Zhou people? I know the idea is rather old, but some people still think about it.

True but analogues would likely arise in terms of expansionistic Abrahamic and dharmic faiths that eventually reach the area. A native monotheistic tradition would affect how they are received.

I wasn't aware of that theory though it makes sense. I am more interested in changing the trajectory of Chinese religious development away from a relatively impersonal concept of heaven to a single more interventionist supreme diety.
 
Well, I'm not actually saying that's what I think. If I remember correctly, tian is never actually referred to as a person in the Zhou bronzes. I've come across a theory that the Zhou also accepted the idea of shang di and that they used the word tian as a concept for his abode. But I don't actually know enough about the idea to say anything for certain. I could try to look some more information up for you, if you want.
 
The drawings from Mongol and Turkic shamanist beliefs look remarkably like the Chinese character for "heaven," just FYI. A connection? Probably not, but ... eh.

Also, there's skepticism about how "Chinese" were the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. It seems that the Han nationality didn't even exist as a precursor to the one that came about with the Qin dynasty. The Shang may have just been a conglomerate of tribes, and not an actual nation.

It's all mysterious, IMO.
 
The drawings from Mongol and Turkic shamanist beliefs look remarkably like the Chinese character for "heaven," just FYI. A connection? Probably not, but ... eh.

Also, there's skepticism about how "Chinese" were the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. It seems that the Han nationality didn't even exist as a precursor to the one that came about with the Qin dynasty. The Shang may have just been a conglomerate of tribes, and not an actual nation.

It's all mysterious, IMO.

Uhh, you do realize that the idea of Han nationality, while far more recent than the actual Han Dynasty, does stem from the, ahem, Han Dynasty, which existed later than those three you mention?

As for the Xia, it's hard to be a Chinese nation when it's not comprehensively proven that they existed. Besides, if anything, I'm willing to bet that the Shang were older than the nomads to their north. After all, it wasn't until the development of sedentary civilization that nomadic civilization developed. I mean, there are arguments about how Chinese the Shang and Zhou were, but I've never heard of the concept of tian being Turkic or Mongol. To be fair, some records state that the Zhou peoples were once nomads themselves, but I'm pretty sure that the character for tian predates them.
 
It is hinted that there was maybe other 'sino-x' peoples and other groups maybe in distant past around. Some leftovers of languages hint at non chinese, maybe non sinic-tibeto-birman-etc(?) stuff.
 
Well, I'm not actually saying that's what I think. If I remember correctly, tian is never actually referred to as a person in the Zhou bronzes. I've come across a theory that the Zhou also accepted the idea of shang di and that they used the word tian as a concept for his abode. But I don't actually know enough about the idea to say anything for certain. I could try to look some more information up for you, if you want.

Okay, so I've come across Hsu and Lindoff's Western Chou Civilization which describes tian as such:

Heaven, or the dome of the sky, was worshiped as the supreme being by the Chou The word t'ien, or Heaven, did appear in their oracle inscriptions . . . Sometimes t'ien was part of a proper name, sometimes it meant "great" or "grand," but in no case did t'ien carry an antropomorphic meaning such as "sky-god." Fu Ssu-nien thought that even though t'ien did not connote a sky-god, it did signify the solemnity of the dome of the sky . . . The term itself must have been borrowed from the Shang and used to name the already prevalent Chou concept of a supreme being.

So it seems that I was wrong, since it seems tian was worshiped as a supreme being, and not a sky-god. Apparently, the Mandate of Heaven was actually given by Heaven, a being. So it seems that you don't need the Shang for a sort of proto-monotheism. You can simply change the history of the Zhou.
 
Yes, I do know the name 'Han' stems from the Han Dynasty. What other, older, names are there, then, that weren't politically tied to a state or have been removed from being tied to a state? I'm using it more as a placeholder.
 
Yes, I do know the name 'Han' stems from the Han Dynasty. What other, older, names are there, then, that weren't politically tied to a state or have been removed from being tied to a state? I'm using it more as a placeholder.

Maybe this 'Hua' word I heard around...
 

scholar

Banned
But, to answer the question, I assume you're getting rid of the hypothesis that Shang Di (or just Di) was the chief god of the Shang people and that Tian was the chief god of the Zhou people? I know the idea is rather old, but some people still think about it.
It has long since lost its way as a mainstream accepted notion.
 

scholar

Banned
Yes, I do know the name 'Han' stems from the Han Dynasty. What other, older, names are there, then, that weren't politically tied to a state or have been removed from being tied to a state? I'm using it more as a placeholder.
Zhongguoren: "People of the Middle Kingdom"
 
I'm fairly sure 'Zhongguo' was an invention that came about sometime in the late Zhou. I speak Mandarin myself, so yeah, I know what Chinese people call themselves these days. Zhongguo is entirely political and I suspect came about sometime in the Zhou dynasty.

Wikipedia (PBUH) says 'Huaxia' is one of the older names that signified "Chinese" vs. non-Chinese.

Anyhoo, back to monotheism... Maybe? If it existed, the Shang certainly existed for a very long time compared to other dynasties (which makes its existence as a unified polity that encompassed all of the 'Huaxia' questionable), so I don't think a longer Shang would've kept a monotheistic belief system. Chinese gods have always been fairly distant and removed, unlike many of the monotheistic gods.
 
Okay, so this is a two-month bump, so it's not necromancy.

A few things to note: I'm pretty sure that while Shang Di and Tian connection is a complicated one. If I remember correctly, Shang Di was the deified ancestor of the Shang people, while cult of Tian didn't develop until the Zhou arrive. So while I'm not sure it's a "Shang di is the Shang chief god, Tian is the Zhou chief god" situation, I would stand by the assertion that the respective worship of Shang Di and Tian were associated mostly with the Shang and Zhou. I'm pretty sure Shang Di was an ancestor god, and Tian was not, so I'm not sure why Shang Di and Tian would be considered the same name, with Tian being the Zhou name for Shang Di. I don't know if Shang Di or Tian were that interventionist.

As for the idea of tian coming from Turkic peoples, I guess I was too quick to doubt it. I guess it might have been from a Turkic idea, with Tian connected to Tengri. I've opened my mind a bit after coming across Sanping Chen's "Son of Heaven and Son of God: Interactions among Ancient Asiatic Cultures regarding Sacral Kingship and Theophoric Names", though I'm not yet sure what to definitively state. Apparently, the Shiji states that though the Zhou traced their ancestry to Hou Ji, they were functionally living as nomads, which seems to me to be a case of inventive genealogy to justify their rule. So, yes, maybe the Zhou were northern nomads.

So, if the Zhou were really nomads from the west or north, then the idea that Tian was a Turkic nomadic deity becomes more possible.
 
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