A Less Terrible French Empire?

Any chance that a French king becomes Columbus' patron and we get French conquistadores instead of Spanish ones?

Why Charles VIII would have done that? He was trying to conquer Italy that was clearly more rich, more close and more easy to grab than the gold of the Great Khan.

All his diplomatic activity (with Brittany, England and Aragon) was about "we let you going where you want but let us Italy".
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
The problem with France is they played two games: the Continental game and the Colonial game. They could never put all their focus on the Colonial game since they also tried to maintain their place as a European Continental Power.
 
What if France were able to attain a boundary at the Rhine far earlier in its history giving it "natural defenses" and such? I'd imagine this would require a far different division of Charlemagne's Empire though...
 
What if France were able to attain a boundary at the Rhine far earlier in its history giving it "natural defenses" and such? I'd imagine this would require a far different division of Charlemagne's Empire though...

Well it could have been a good defense, but I'm not sure it would be more efficient than Vosges or Ardennes.

What allowed France to create his first colonial empire in Americas was the protections of borders : even if the army hevily weakened at the end of Great Alliance war, the ennemies never managed to really invade the kingdom thanks to Vauban fortifications. So the country wealth was protected from war.

If you have a Rhine border, you'll have more wealth, and that could help. But i'm not sure about it being efficient to hold surrounding hostile powers more than OTL border did.
 

Esopo

Banned
If the french empire is considered terrible i can hardly imagine how would you the italian colonial empire :D
 
A pre-"Colombian" PoD in which France is no longer Mediterranean country? This would focus them strongly on the Atlantic affairs?
 
A pre-"Colombian" PoD in which France is no longer Mediterranean country? This would focus them strongly on the Atlantic affairs?

In fact, it would be the contrary : it would make France even less encline to consider seafare as worthy. Don't forget the Mediterranea was more or less the practice terrain of european fleet (that and North Sea).

A better POD would have a more earlier Mediterranean France that happens to hold large portions of Spain (Aragon for seafare earns bonus points).
 

Esopo

Banned
In fact, it would be the contrary : it would make France even less encline to consider seafare as worthy. Don't forget the Mediterranea was more or less the practice terrain of european fleet (that and North Sea).

A better POD would have a more earlier Mediterranean France that happens to hold large portions of Spain (Aragon for seafare earns bonus points).

how long time france needed to control its mediterranean shore? wasnt marseille for long time not part of france?
 
The perenial problem of France from the age of discoveries all the way to the present day is that France has got her arse between two chairs as we would say in French. One chair is a continental strategy and the other one is a maritime strategy.
Let's not even talk about the fact that French maritime power is divided between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean as well for geographic reasons.

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The problem I have with this argument is that it's not like Spain didn't have continental ambitions. It fought in the Italian wars too; it tried to suppress the Dutch Revolt; it invaded North Africa.

Nobody wants to suggest that France's government and leadership were the problem.
 
I think a good POD would be before the war againts the Franco-Dutch. At that time the economy was rather good, Colbert was in charge and start some projects to increase the economy with mercantilism, the development of factories, enlarge the fleet and so on, the borders were pretty safe with Vauban doing his job of fortification, the Edicts of Nantes not revoked yet, so the Huguenots were still in France...

So what if instead of attacking the Dutch, Louis XIV decided to expand his territories in the Americas ?
 
how long time france needed to control its mediterranean shore? wasnt marseille for long time not part of france?

But Marseille wasn't the only harbour of Mediterranea, and was quite in decline in the most part of Middle-Ages.

You had the creation of harbours from nothing, as Aigues-Mortes, and the use of many others still existing (is threatened by ensablement of shores).

It's not a matter of time, even if it helps. It's a matter of France having access to the better harbours, where the economical dynamic is. Most obvious choice is Aragon.
 
I think a good POD would be before the war againts the Franco-Dutch. At that time the economy was rather good, Colbert was in charge and start some projects to increase the economy with mercantilism, the development of factories, enlarge the fleet and so on, the borders were pretty safe with Vauban doing his job of fortification, the Edicts of Nantes not revoked yet, so the Huguenots were still in France...

So what if instead of attacking the Dutch, Louis XIV decided to expand his territories in the Americas ?

France is still awkwardly positioned relative to the Baltic, which makes building up the navy more problematic than for England or the Netherlands (and making comparisons to Spain isn't solving the problem, I'm talking what inconvenienced France OTL).

Also, why would Louis prefer American colonies? What do they promise?

Spain has taken all the nice fat parts of the Americas, which leaves dreary development of settler colonies. Or war with Spain.
 
France is still awkwardly positioned relative to the Baltic, which makes building up the navy more problematic than for England or the Netherlands (and making comparisons to Spain isn't solving the problem, I'm talking what inconvenienced France OTL).

Also, why would Louis prefer American colonies? What do they promise?

Spain has taken all the nice fat parts of the Americas, which leaves dreary development of settler colonies. Or war with Spain.

For the Baltic, there's nothing France can really do. And for the Americas, it was more an exemple, I could have said India (the French started to settle there in 1673). And Spain isn't really threatening since the thirty years war.

My point is France is in a relative good shape if she wanted to expend her colonies or create new ones.
 
For the Baltic, there's nothing France can really do. And for the Americas, it was more an exemple, I could have said India (the French started to settle there in 1673). And Spain isn't really threatening since the thirty years war.

My point is France is in a relative good shape if she wanted to expend her colonies or create new ones.

There isn't, but it's going to hold back even an interested France - this should be taken into consideration.

But yes, this is as good an opportunity as any for France to try - it won't do so well in Europe maybe, but it might be a better investment given the problems faced by OTL's efforts.
 
Yes they were still a large and immensely powerful force, but compare them to Britain and her empire and they seem like an embarrassment.

You do realise this is a pretty weird statement. It's like saying that a Jaguar is a great car but compared to a Rolls-Royce it's a bit of an embarrassment. How is being number 2 "terrible"?
 
France is still awkwardly positioned relative to the Baltic, which makes building up the navy more problematic than for England or the Netherlands (and making comparisons to Spain isn't solving the problem, I'm talking what inconvenienced France OTL).

Boom. They win the war with the Netherlands in the 1670s. That knocks out the Dutch.


I don't get why you think geography is destiny for France, but have argued elsewhere that China's problems were predominantly cultural.
 
Have France conquer England, and then the rest of Britain gets fractured into Wales and Scotland. There is no British rivalry to deal with anymore and so France is free to take the nicer colonies.
 
Have France conquer England, and then the rest of Britain gets fractured into Wales and Scotland. There is no British rivalry to deal with anymore and so France is free to take the nicer colonies.

What about the great grey thing at the east? Without talking the yellow one at the south.
 
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