A LARGER FAR EASTERN FRONT WW1

[ghappy1000]

1899-1914
Because of Germany taking the Philippines, there is no Philippine America war. However, there was a conflict over the Germans and the natives over a short period of time until the Malays decided to intervene on no colonizing, when the Germans gave the islands independence.
In the 1900s, the victory of the Japanese over the Russians gave the Malays confidence .Although Germany respected the independence of the nations, it wanted fleet bases for its navy and so, it demanded that the Philippines sign an alliance, which it did in 1907.
The Germans saw that although the quality of the Malaysian Army was good by the standard of Asian armies, they were concerned about defence of the country and that of the Philippines. They sent a corps to help train and defend the armies of Malaysia and the Philippines.

 

[ghappy1000]

Introduction

Just to tell you, the pod is Britain giving Malacca back to the Malays and the unification of Malaysia [I used a pod of 1641 as well, but in any event, while the pod only affects Southeast Asia and Holland, there's still the butterfly effect, so this can also be used.] Rest of the story:
In the meantime, the British took Penang in 1786 and Singapore in 1819.
In the 19th century, the friendly relations between Johor and Holland resulted in an alliance. As a result, the Aceh colonization attempt never occurred. The father of Sultan Abu Bakar of Johor, realizing that his kingdom would be colonized, suggested that he modernize his sultanate. He sent his son on a trip to Holland to learn about European politics, weapons and culture and he made an agreement with other Malay kingdoms to unite Malaysia. He made his country more like western Europe and Japan, but without undermining the traditional culture and Islam. His son signed an alliance with Germany to modernize its military and alliances with Japan, China and the Ottomans.
In the meantime, the modernization began when Abu Bakar took power. In 1870, the Malaysian navy got its first steamship and 5 gunboats. It received its first corvette in 1872. For many years, it was commandered by a Dutch, Pels Rijcken, who earlier taught the Japanese the principles of a modern navy [navigation, cannon and measurements] to Baifuku officers such as Katsu Kaishu. With his country being friendly to the Malays as well, he decided to impliment the same naval teachings to Malaysia. In 1875, it received two ironclads and by the end of the decade, it had some 15 warships in total, excluding gunboats and sailing vessels.
The first steam powered ships of the Malaysian navy
The first steam powered ships of the Malaysian navy

Just to tell you, these warships are named KD Johor and KD Melaka.
The reason behind the alliance was, despite the Dutch imperialism in this tl[for pausibility], the Britain were a threat to both the Malay Sultanates and Dutch Java.

 

[Namayan]

Sorry to burst your bubble here. The following are someone questions that you may want to figure out to check the feasibility of your timeline.

Why would the British even give Malaya independence pre 20th century?

Does Malaya even have the same resources as the USA to even expel the British which you mentioned after giving back Malacca, the British still occupied Penang and Singapore?

What cultural changes did the Malays make that it would equate to a fast modernization much like the highly disciplined, very organized Japan and Germany in OTL?

Why would the British even let you take Sarawak from the White Rajahs?

Why would the British even let such a powerful state be in existence out of its control and take territories around its colonies and protectorates?

Why would the British even let you ally with Germany?

Why would the native populace in Sarawak even rebel vs the White Rajah when White Rajahs protected these natives and their culture from commercial exploitation?

Why would the Malay race in Borneo e.g. Brunei even side with this Malayan kingdom when the Malays in borneo are closely allied to the White Rajahs?

 

[ghappy1000]

Sorry to burst your bubble here. The following are someone questions that you may want to figure out to check the feasibility of your timeline.

Why would the British even give Malaya independence pre 20th century?

Does Malaya even have the same resources as the USA to even expel the British which you mentioned after giving back Malacca, the British still occupied Penang and Singapore?

What cultural changes did the Malays make that it would equate to a fast modernization much like the highly disciplined, very organized Japan and Germany in OTL?

Why would the British even let you take Sarawak from the White Rajahs?

Why would the British even let such a powerful state be in existence out of its control and take territories around its colonies and protectorates?

Why would the British even let you ally with Germany?

Why would the native populace in Sarawak even rebel vs the White Rajah when White Rajahs protected these natives and their culture from commercial exploitation?

Why would the Malay race in Borneo e.g. Brunei even side with this Malayan kingdom when the Malays in borneo are closely allied to the White Rajahs?

If this were the case, if one is possible, than 2 should be possible.
[1] Perhaps, instead of giving it independence, they return it to the Johor Sultanate. 2 No, the British just take only Penang and Singapore. 3. Maybe the Sultan of Johor modernizes if he receives knowledge. Forget about the Borneo thing though. This is because the British want a port, but they don't want to colonize Malay sultanates, so they just take islands suitable for port construction. Ignore Sarawak and Sabah.
Perhaps if the British give Malacca back to Johor Sultanate and take Penang and Singapore, still possible. Then, they form an initial alliance so that it doesn't get colonized. If the Malay German alliance was signed before 1900, possible. Sarawak still gets under White Rajah control though. And the Philippines, although independent, were a German puppet state. Cultural changes would be through British and Dutch influences. If independent Johor and unified Malaysia is achieved, Sarawak is the only problem.

 

[zert]

To me this seems a little muddled. You might want to fully write out your various POD, and the reasons on how things got to where they are.

 

[Namayan]

If this were the case, if one is possible, than 2 should be possible.
[1] Perhaps, instead of giving it independence, they return it to the Johor Sultanate. 2 No, the British just take only Penang and Singapore. 3. Maybe the Sultan of Johor modernizes if he receives knowledge. Forget about the Borneo thing though. This is because the British want a port, but they don't want to colonize Malay sultanates, so they just take islands suitable for port construction. Ignore Sarawak and Sabah.
Perhaps if the British give Malacca back to Johor Sultanate and take Penang and Singapore, still possible. Then, they form an initial alliance so that it doesn't get colonized. If the Malay German alliance was signed before 1900, possible. Sarawak still gets under White Rajah control though. And the Philippines, although independent, were a German puppet state. Cultural changes would be through British and Dutch influences. If independent Johor and unified Malaysia is achieved, Sarawak is the only problem.

Since you did not mentioned any British PoD besides in Malaya, the first question is attitude/character of British. The British attitude back then was burn anything military that the locals made much like they did with the Sultan of Kedah, when Sultan started building forts. The British will never give up the Malayan peninsula just for the sake of giving it up since it is the richest deposit of tin in the world which was needed for the ongoing industrialization.

Another issue that you have to resolve is unified identity. Since malaysia did not have any unified identity pre 1900, each state was a different nation. There was also infighting among what you considered within the Sultanates themselves, civil war, etc.

You also have a time limit since the British only legitimized the rule in the whole British Malaya in 1874. That means, western education would take another generation to take fold, which is around early 1900.

Once you have resolved unification, time limit and education, you go back to the question of resistance. Do these confederated, different sultanates have the resources and manpower to expel the British? The only example of a nation who gained British independence pre 1900 by military force is the USA. A rough estimate of this is you can compare the land area, manpower, technology, culture, talent pool of USA 1776 vs Malaya Peninsula 1900 if it is even feasible.

Once you resolve all of that, you need a Great power/s backer to at least negate the British navy if this is even possible in this time period much like France for USA in 1776.

Upon independence, you need time to industrialize/modernize. For the Japanese, it took 30 years from Meiji restoration up until First Sino-Japanese war. For a more modern comparison, 30 years for mainland China from Deng Xiaoping's time to a more modern Chinese Navy in 2010.

 

[ghappy1000]

Since you did not mentioned any British PoD besides in Malaya, the first question is attitude/character of British. The British attitude back then was burn anything military that the locals made much like they did with the Sultan of Kedah, when Sultan started building forts. The British will never give up the Malayan peninsula just for the sake of giving it up since it is the richest deposit of tin in the world which was needed for the ongoing industrialization.

Another issue that you have to resolve is unified identity. Since malaysia did not have any unified identity pre 1900, each state was a different nation. There was also infighting among what you considered within the Sultanates themselves, civil war, etc.

You also have a time limit since the British only legitimized the rule in the whole British Malaya in 1874. That means, western education would take another generation to take fold, which is around early 1900.

Once you have resolved unification, time limit and education, you go back to the question of resistance. Do these confederated, different sultanates have the resources and manpower to expel the British? The only example of a nation who gained British independence pre 1900 by military force is the USA. A rough estimate of this is you can compare the land area, manpower, technology, culture, talent pool of USA 1776 vs Malaya Peninsula 1900 if it is even feasible.

Once you resolve all of that, you need a Great power/s backer to at least negate the British navy if this is even possible in this time period much like France for USA in 1776.

Upon independence, you need time to industrialize/modernize. For the Japanese, it took 30 years from Meiji restoration up until First Sino-Japanese war. For a more modern comparison, 30 years for mainland China from Deng Xiaoping's time to a more modern Chinese Navy in 2010.

Okay, maybe the sequence should be modernization first then taking the rest of the sultanates? And I mean using a unified Malaysia, not confederated sultanates. And, where's the tin? But, even if in the 1890s, still possible to intervene in events from 1898 onwards. And even if you don't agree, German controlled or puppet state Philippines and Holland in Central Powers should do the trick. Of course, this means a German Dutch alliance?

 

[Namayan]

Okay, maybe the sequence should be modernization first then taking the rest of the sultanates? And I mean using a unified Malaysia, not confederated sultanates. And, where's the tin? But, even if in the 1890s, still possible to intervene in events from 1898 onwards. And even if you don't agree, German controlled or puppet state Philippines and Holland in Central Powers should do the trick. Of course, this means a German Dutch alliance?

To tell, you frankly, any successful violent independence of Malaya with a limited PoD 1800-1900 vs the British is just ASB. The circumstance happening in 1800-1900 in Malayan peninsula and short time period is not in favor of a unified Malayan state. ASB is Even more so of a regional power Malayan peninsula by WW1 that can challenge the British empire at its peak.

The thing about South East Asian states is that they were mostly unified by their colonizers,e.g. Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines. That means the earliest possible identification as one Malaysian state is 1874 during the Pangkor Treaty. Otherwise, it wont be a Malaysian state. It will just be a Johor state or a Kedah state, etc.

Tin mining is from Kedah into the Kinta Valley and along the foothills of Perak, Selangor and Johore.

As far as I can remember, Malayan peninsula had around 2M in 1900. Those other SEA countries had each 7-40M population by the time of their independence. Even the USA had 7M population during their independence.

After manpower, and unification, you need to be educated and armed. Those countries that I mentioned were educated and armed either by their colonizer or their opponents, at least 20 years for just western education.

One of the most important aspects of revolution and violent independence is what is the trigger? Besides enlightenment and national identity, USA had taxation without representation, the Filipinos had been racially discriminated, Vietnam/Indonesia were technically taken by the Japanese from their colonizers.

The other part is a great power supporter to negate the British. In this time period, the British were the superpowers. I dont think any nation can negate the British in South East Asia much like the other colonizers of the other colonial SEA powers were negated unless all the other factors/circumstances are in favor of this hypothetical "Malaysian state" much like USA had during 1776.

The Dutch are allied to the British by 1824. By 1902, Japan-Anglo alliance. Yes, the German's can interfere. But to what extent can they project a power vs the superpower of the day in South East Asia and British allies? Remember OTL the Germans colonies in Asia were just shoved by the Japanese and British in WW1.

Once you even do all these, however, improbable it may be, you still need to industrialize/modernize which would mean you would go pass WW1 time period. Doing too much in a small time period with very little resources to challenge status quo just really makes the objectives out of reach.

 

[ghappy1000]

To tell, you frankly, any successful violent independence of Malaya with a limited PoD 1800-1900 vs the British is just ASB. The circumstance happening in 1800-1900 in Malayan peninsula and short time period is not in favor of a unified Malayan state. ASB is Even more so of a regional power Malayan peninsula by WW1 that can challenge the British empire at its peak.

The thing about South East Asian states is that they were mostly unified by their colonizers,e.g. Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines. That means the earliest possible identification as one Malaysian state is 1874 during the Pangkor Treaty. Otherwise, it wont be a Malaysian state. It will just be a Johor state or a Kedah state, etc.

Tin mining is from Kedah into the Kinta Valley and along the foothills of Perak, Selangor and Johore.

As far as I can remember, Malayan peninsula had around 2M in 1900. Those other SEA countries had each 7-40M population by the time of their independence. Even the USA had 7M population during their independence.

After manpower, and unification, you need to be educated and armed. Those countries that I mentioned were educated and armed either by their colonizer or their opponents, at least 20 years for just western education.

One of the most important aspects of revolution and violent independence is what is the trigger? Besides enlightenment and national identity, USA had taxation without representation, the Filipinos had been racially discriminated, Vietnam/Indonesia were technically taken by the Japanese from their colonizers.

The other part is a great power supporter to negate the British. In this time period, the British were the superpowers. I dont think any nation can negate the British in South East Asia much like the other colonizers of the other colonial SEA powers were negated unless all the other factors/circumstances are in favor of this hypothetical "Malaysian state" much like USA had during 1776.

The Dutch are allied to the British by 1824. By 1902, Japan-Anglo alliance. Yes, the German's can interfere. But to what extent can they project a power vs the superpower of the day in South East Asia and British allies? Remember OTL the Germans colonies in Asia were just shoved by the Japanese and British in WW1.

Once you even do all these, however, improbable it may be, you still need to industrialize/modernize which would mean you would go pass WW1 time period. Doing too much in a small time period with very little resources to challenge status quo just really makes the objectives out of reach.

How about in WW2? Is that more likely?

 

[Namayan]

How about in WW2? Is that more likely?

Well, for malaya, PoD going earlier than 1800 means around 500 years back, Malaya will not be recognize as it is today. It means, it will not be called Malaysia or malaya. Plus it needs to fuse with other states, Thailand, Sumatra, Borneo because the peninsula itself is too small to challenge European great powers. It will probably called Siam or Sri Vijaya empire Sumatra or Aceh or Borneo Empire, Johore Empire or something else. But, it is highly probable and possible.

If you want WW2, the best Malaya could do is replicate what Thailand did in WW2, become allies with the Japanese. Then, eventually lose. Malaya wont be a regional power, but with the Japanese help and OTL version, you get to expel the British in WW2 even for a short while. Then, you eventually have US and British forces coming back.

So, in a sense, all that will do is hasten independence from 1960s in OTL to 1946-50.

 

[ghappy1000]

Well, for malaya, PoD going earlier than 1800 means around 500 years back, Malaya will not be recognize as it is today. It means, it will not be called Malaysia or malaya. Plus it needs to fuse with other states, Thailand, Sumatra, Borneo because the peninsula itself is too small to challenge European great powers. It will probably called Siam or Sri Vijaya empire Sumatra or Aceh or Borneo Empire, Johore Empire or something else. But, it is highly probable and possible.

If you want WW2, the best Malaya could do is replicate what Thailand did in WW2, become allies with the Japanese. Then, eventually lose. Malaya wont be a regional power, but with the Japanese help and OTL version, you get to expel the British in WW2 even for a short while. Then, you eventually have US and British forces coming back.

So, in a sense, all that will do is hasten independence from 1960s in OTL to 1946-50.

How about a more powerful Netherlands in the Dutch East Indies and a German friendly Philippines?

 

[ghappy1000]

Okay, so does a German friendly Philippines and a more powerful Dutch East Indies work? My pod would be then Germans taking Philippines and giving it a German friendly government and the Dutch building their proposed battleships earlier. When 1914 comes, the Dutch join CP under the threat of German invasion. The first pod would be a pro German Dutch government, so the Dutch contribute to the success of German intervention in the Philippines.

 

[Namayan]

How about a more powerful Netherlands in the Dutch East Indies and a German friendly Philippines?

Okay, so does a German friendly Philippines and a more powerful Dutch East Indies work? My pod would be then Germans taking Philippines and giving it a German friendly government and the Dutch building their proposed battleships earlier. When 1914 comes, the Dutch join CP under the threat of German invasion. The first pod would be a pro German Dutch government, so the Dutch contribute to the success of German intervention in the Philippines.

In an 1890s PoD, I doubt the Germans or the Japanese would colonize the Philippines in the 1890s, Too many personal local friends between either one. The most the both can do is become protector of the Philippines. No need to take Philippines to make it pro-German in 1890s, Philippines was already pro-German.

In 1890s PoD, issue with Philippines is you really got to think about Philippines as a Western/Latin nation. The best I can describe Philippines back in OTL 1890s was its economy was approx. Denmark/Greece size with 7M population predominantly Roman catholic, access to Western education locally, Hispanic culture.