A Jewish Victory in Barcelona

A quick review: in 1263, King James I of Aragon held a disputation between a Christian priest and a Jewish rabbi. Such things were not uncommon, as a means to pressure Jews to convert. Usually, the debates were heavily rigged, with the rabbis unable to question fundamental tenets of Christianity. The Barcelona Disputation was not rigged. Furthermore, while the priest, Friar Pablo Christiani, was quite qualified - he was a Jewish convert with extensive knowledge of Jewish theology - he was up against Rabbi Moses ben Nachman, aka Nachmanides, one of the great Jewish sages. The result was that Christiani got his ass handed to him with a side order of gefilte fish. King James did declare that Christiani was the victor nonetheless, but unofficially felt that Nachmanides had won.

My question is, what if King James had been sufficiently persuaded to not only openly declare Nachmanides the victor, but then convert to Judaism? Assuming, for the moment, that he wasn't quickly overthrown in a coup, what impact would the conversion of a powerful and respected king to Judaism have had?

I have a few suggestions:
- Given that the first post-conversion act of King James would almost certainly have been a decree granting Jews complete religious freedom in Aragon, there would have likely been a massive migration of European Jews to Aragon. The fact that Nachmanides would have probably become the official court rabbi would have helped encourag this. Barcelona would probably become the new center of Jewish culture and learning.
- Even if King James had held on to power locally, someone outside Aragon might have tried to overthrow him. Conversely, I imagine the leaders of Muslim Spain would have sought to court him.
- In the long run, could a nominally Jewish monarchy survive in Europe?
 
I think Saint Louis would reclaim his right to sovereign of Catalonia and invade. But even if he doesn't would his current Christian Queen convert with him, or to truely Judeaize his lineage would he have to marry a Jewish lady. If so then, what would his current heir Peter get?

I think that Aragon converting to Catharism would be more likely. Or maybe, if somehow the power of the Dominicans could be usurped James could somehow take part in a Judeaization of Christianity.
 
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I think Saint Louis would reclaim his right to sovereign of Catalonia and invade. But even if he doesn't would his current Christian Queen convert with him, or to truely Judeaize his lineage would he have to marry a Jewish lady. If so then, what would his current heir Peter get?

I think that Aragon converting to Catharism would be more likely. Or maybe, if somehow the power of the Dominicans could be usurped James could somehow take part in a Judeaization of Christianity.

By 1263 you can forget Aragon converting to Catherism. It had been essentially snuffed out by then.
Jewish conversion by a christian monarch would be near ASB. His majority christian subjects would revolt and it would invite foreign invasion as well. The general disarray might have breathed a little life into the remnant of al-Andalus.
 
By 1263 you can forget Aragon converting to Catherism. It had been essentially snuffed out by then.
Jewish conversion by a christian monarch would be near ASB. His majority christian subjects would revolt and it would invite foreign invasion as well. The general disarray might have breathed a little life into the remnant of al-Andalus.

I was thinking along the lines of degrees of ASBitude.
 
I was thinking along the lines of degrees of ASBitude.

I just think the OP is aiming too high as it were in terms of Jewish success in Iberia. Now if it were something along the lines of Nachmanides' victory leads to greater tolerance and more rights for Jews in Aragon, even so far as to invite Jews from less tolerant parts of Iberia and even France to settle in Aragon ---that I could see as a doable POD.
 
I just think the OP is aiming too high as it were in terms of Jewish success in Iberia. Now if it were something along the lines of Nachmanides' victory leads to greater tolerance and more rights for Jews in Aragon, even so far as to invite Jews from less tolerant parts of Iberia and even France to settle in Aragon ---that I could see as a doable POD.

I agree, but I think for tolerance to be lasting the POD would have to be pretty dramatic. I think what James' I rule shows is that you can have pretty tolerant and anti-papist things happen during your rule, but the prevailing winds of conservatism continued.

Like what if he could somehow oppose the ruling that only Jews could lend money? I think that since Barcelona was such a booming trading and intellectual center, giving the city as a whole more say in the kingdom would be good. Also it might give the nobility one less reason to hate jews specifically, anyone could be a creditor.
 
I agree, but I think for tolerance to be lasting the POD would have to be pretty dramatic. I think what James' I rule shows is that you can have pretty tolerant and anti-papist things happen during your rule, but the prevailing winds of conservatism continued.

Like what if he could somehow oppose the ruling that only Jews could lend money? I think that since Barcelona was such a booming trading and intellectual center, giving the city as a whole more say in the kingdom would be good. Also it might give the nobility one less reason to hate jews specifically, anyone could be a creditor.

das ist vernünftig...:) although a bit ahead of OTL in terms of the growth of gentile lenders.
 
Reading about James I, apparently after his father died James was held hostage by Count Simon de Montfort, and was not released until Pope Innocent III ordered him to. He was returned to Catalonia and was raised by the Master of Templars of Aragon and Catalonia Guillen de Montredon. Guillen was later made Procurador General the rents and incomes of Catalonia.

Templars and Jews, oh my! It's the making of a medieval thriller.
 
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Reading about James I, apparently after his father died James was held hostage by Count Simon de Montfort, and was not released until Pope Innocent III ordered him to. He was returned to Catalonia and was raised by the Master of Templars of Aragon and Catalonia Guillen de Montredon. Guillen was later made Procurador General the rents and incomes of Catalonia.

Some would say that the Templars had Catherist (or in any event, non-conforming religious) leanings or sympathies...
 

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Like what if he could somehow oppose the ruling that only Jews could lend money? I think that since Barcelona was such a booming trading and intellectual center, giving the city as a whole more say in the kingdom would be good. Also it might give the nobility one less reason to hate jews specifically, anyone could be a creditor.

But nobody likes having to pay a credit back.

And besides: How capable would the Christians be for banking? This is not a business you learn overnight. Also, the Pope and others will have a say.

And even if all these points were no problem: From what business would the Jews live off instead, if they lose banking?
 
But nobody likes having to pay a credit back.

And besides: How capable would the Christians be for banking? This is not a business you learn overnight. Also, the Pope and others will have a say.

And even if all these points were no problem: From what business would the Jews live off instead, if they lose banking?

I have read that the Church itself took part in banking at this time, so it wasn't like no Christians whatsoever took part in it. Even the Templars were famous for holding many promissory notes. As to what the Jews will do without banking, I would imagine that as tolerance slowly developes the restrictions in craft guilds and the like will ease.
 
A quick review: in 1263, King James I of Aragon held a disputation between a Christian priest and a Jewish rabbi. Such things were not uncommon, as a means to pressure Jews to convert. Usually, the debates were heavily rigged, with the rabbis unable to question fundamental tenets of Christianity. The Barcelona Disputation was not rigged. Furthermore, while the priest, Friar Pablo Christiani, was quite qualified - he was a Jewish convert with extensive knowledge of Jewish theology - he was up against Rabbi Moses ben Nachman, aka Nachmanides, one of the great Jewish sages. The result was that Christiani got his ass handed to him with a side order of gefilte fish. King James did declare that Christiani was the victor nonetheless, but unofficially felt that Nachmanides had won.

My question is, what if King James had been sufficiently persuaded to not only openly declare Nachmanides the victor, but then convert to Judaism?

While a cool idea, I can't see any Christian King in Iberia covering at all, and if they did it would be too Islam. Although Im pretty sure that would involve a new ruling family.
 
I doubt it would be politically feasible for a king to convert to Judaism but in this situation I could maybe see him declaring Jews equal to Christians by law and invite in Jews from the surrounding countries making Aragon a safe haven for them in the long run. That alone would be controversial but it's the most he could do without being killed and his realm destroyed.
 
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