A Jewish Khanate

Let's go back to the more famous later khanates-

What if one of the Mongol royal family converted to Judaism? There was Sartak who was Nestorian after all, and also Faaelin's Prince of Peace had Orda Khan becoming a Christian. If Mongol high generals and direct descendants of Genghis could be Christians, why not Jews?

I don't think that's a good comparison - at the time, there were a lot more Nestorians than Jews in Central Asia, and unlike the Jews, the Nestorians already had a lot of experience and success with converting Central Asian nomads.

Though it's still possible to have a Mongol khan convert to Judaism, the odds of that actually happening are *a lot* smaller than the odds of a Mongol khan converting to some form of Christianity.
 
Noahides?

Perhaps if they are unlikely to convert to Judaism something similar to the Noahides could take root. With 1/100th the laws of Judaism it is easy to take up without significantly altering your culture and may make them more palatable to other monotheists without forcing them to choose sides in the Christianity VS Islam "debate".
 

Valdemar II

Banned
So a good POD: the Magyars stay in Etelkuzu (which is part of my POD, although it begins a few decades earlier in MTL). The Khazars survive with much more territory, strong enough to resist any Rus' incursions.

....

And if you use my POD, the effect of no Magyars is going to be enormous. For one, Louis IV of East Francia (Germany) is not going to die, as he died after being defeated by the Magyars. This means the Carolingians will still be supported more in East Francia, and if Louis has a son their line could continue... no Ottonians or Conradines, and maybe Germany fracturing like OTL West Francia.

The effect is going to be even bigger the Magyars emigrated together with the Bulgars, so we will likely not see a Bulgar Kingdoms in Thrace.

So some effects:

No Magyars, the Hungarians plain (the Hungarian enclave in Transylvania) is colonised by Bavarians, they were only thinly populated (200000) by Moravians (Slovaks) and Avars before the Magyarian invasion, the Magyars doesn't serve as outher enemy for East Frankia, so the we could end up with the tribal duchies, becoming independent states, with the whole Frankish Empire (the German tribal duchies, the Kingdom of Lombardy/Italy, and a disunited France) loosely united under the HRE.

No Bulgars, a stronger position for the Romans in Thrace, we could see a succesfull Hellenisation of the south Danubian Balkan. So a stronger East Roman Empire. Together with the fact that a large part of the Turk becomes Jews, we could also see them keep Anatolian.

Lesser contact between Rus and Constatinoble, maybe the Russian doesn't go Othodocs but becames Catholics instead or the different Rus nation become different religion, with the North going Catholic, while the south becomes either Othodocs, Jewish or Muslim.
 
I'm doing a TL about the Khazars as well, and I can help if you want (lots of research done on them).
:)
Were you talking to me or the OP?

Let's go back to the more famous later khanates-

What if one of the Mongol royal family converted to Judaism? There was Sartak who was Nestorian after all, and also Faaelin's Prince of Peace had Orda Khan becoming a Christian. If Mongol high generals and direct descendants of Genghis could be Christians, why not Jews?

Already been don - see David bar Elias's "Jewish China."

The effect is going to be even bigger the Magyars emigrated together with the Bulgars, so we will likely not see a Bulgar Kingdoms in Thrace.

So some effects:

No Magyars, the Hungarians plain (the Hungarian enclave in Transylvania) is colonised by Bavarians, they were only thinly populated (200000) by Moravians (Slovaks) and Avars before the Magyarian invasion, the Magyars doesn't serve as outher enemy for East Frankia, so the we could end up with the tribal duchies, becoming independent states, with the whole Frankish Empire (the German tribal duchies, the Kingdom of Lombardy/Italy, and a disunited France) loosely united under the HRE.

No Bulgars, a stronger position for the Romans in Thrace, we could see a succesfull Hellenisation of the south Danubian Balkan. So a stronger East Roman Empire. Together with the fact that a large part of the Turk becomes Jews, we could also see them keep Anatolian.

Lesser contact between Rus and Constatinoble, maybe the Russian doesn't go Othodocs but becames Catholics instead or the different Rus nation become different religion, with the North going Catholic, while the south becomes either Othodocs, Jewish or Muslim.


I see several problems with this:

1. Etelkoz was the area in Ukraine and Moldova which the Magyars migrated to in the 9th century, around 200 years after the Bulgarians migrated to Thrace. So the Magyars staying in Etelkoz will not stop the Bulgarians from migrating 200 years before the POD. However, I would agree with you if the POD involved the Magyars not migrating at all.
2. I agree with your point about Bavarian colonization. The Germans were already in Pannonia (the Balaton Principality was under their suzerainty IIRC), and without the Magyars settling I think they would have continued to migrate there.


I'll have to disagree about the decentralization point. At least with regards to Italy, I think without the Magyars then Italy would have become a very powerful state. During the reign of Berengar I of Italy, the Magyars invaded and devastated a large part of Italy. To defend his kingdom, Berengar was forced to grant huge powers to the feudal lords which made them independent in all but name. Before this Italy had been relatively centralized.
I'm not as sure about Germany, but IMO it was pretty decentralized in this period anyway (Susano or any other Germans, want to help me on this?). The Magyars only served to decentralize further, so without their devastating raids Europe as a whole will be a lot more centralized.

As an aside, I'm not sure were people got the idea that the Magyars or Vikings caused Europe to centralize. In the 9th and 10th centuries, the greatest force causing the spread of feudalism was the raids of Magyars, Arabs, and Vikings causing the central rulers to delegate powers to local nobles in order to defend the entire realm.

And about the religion: for my timeline idea, I had the western Rus' eventually becoming Christian, while a second Rus' state along the Volga (centered at Rostofa / Rostov) becomes Jewish due to extensive contact and trade with the Khazars along their main trade route.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I see several problems with this:

1. Etelkoz was the area in Ukraine and Moldova which the Magyars migrated to in the 9th century, around 200 years after the Bulgarians migrated to Thrace. So the Magyars staying in Etelkoz will not stop the Bulgarians from migrating 200 years before the POD. However, I would agree with you if the POD involved the Magyars not migrating at all.


Hide face in disgrace.
 
I think the most likely scenario for a longer lasting Khazar Khanate is if they somehow get the upper hand in conquering the Kiev Rus and convert them to Judism. This would be quite interesting as the Kiev Rus only converted to Eastern Orthodox after their conquest of the Khazars.
 
I think the most likely scenario for a longer lasting Khazar Khanate is if they somehow get the upper hand in conquering the Kiev Rus and convert them to Judism. This would be quite interesting as the Kiev Rus only converted to Eastern Orthodox after their conquest of the Khazars.
But the two weren't directly related AFAIK, the conversion just happened a few decades after the conquest.

I agree that the Rus' have to be dealt with. But IMO the best way to do so is before they really become a threat. Off the top of my head, there was a pretty-large scale Varangian raid of the Caucasus and Persia in 913. The Khazars charged the Varangians to sail down the Volga to pillage, and when the they came back the Khazar Khagan forced the them to give him a portion of their loot. After they had started back up the Volga, the Khazars betrayed the Varangians. The Khagan allowed Muslims to capture and kill most of the Rus', and the Khazars took most of the treasure. Clever. :D

The point of this story was that it significantly soured relations between the Rus' and the Khazars. If the khagan had simply allowed the Rus' to sail back up the Volga in peace, relations would have been better. And maybe Sviatoslav of Kiev would be butterflied away.
 
so, what happened to the Jews in former Khazaria?
They might have survived.

But most in the Kuban area eventually relapsed into Tengrii paganism after a few centuries. Some were probably sold into slavery, and some may have converted to Islam along with the last Khagan Joseph.

I think most of them were absorbed by the Pechenegs, Kipchaks, and Tatars over the centuries. Peoples on the steppes tended not to last very long. I mean, you don't hear about what the Pechenegs are up to nowadays.

And frankly, I've always found the theory that a Turkic people migrated far west, adopted a Germanic language and customs (with Slavic influence), and then as a culture elminiated any traditions of Khazar heritage a little hard to swallow.
 
so, what happened to the Jews in former Khazaria?
First, they could be not that numerous to begin with. Only Khazar leadership converted, not the whole population. 2nd, history of the Great Steppe seen bigger groups completely disappearing, so it is entirely possible that Karaites and Krymchaks are all what's left of them. 3rd, most of ancestors of the present-day Ashkenaz community lived in Germany centuries after Khazar kaganate disappeared. Small Jewish communities of the Eastern Europe had been wiped out by Mongols.
 
I think the most likely scenario for a longer lasting Khazar Khanate is if they somehow get the upper hand in conquering the Kiev Rus and convert them to Judism. This would be quite interesting as the Kiev Rus only converted to Eastern Orthodox after their conquest of the Khazars.

This would be interesting indeed! There's a story (probably apocryphal) according to which the Rus weren't sure of which religion to follow, but ended up chosing Ortodox Christianity after being very impressed by the buildings of Constantinople. Might a stronger Khazaria ends up becoming more appealing to them than a Christian Orthodox Bizanthium???

If Kiev ends up Jewish, it could be the base for a strongg sedentary Jewish state. With his Southern and Eastern flancs being protected by Khazarian Nomads, this state have great chances to survive and expand. If its survives at least till the least Middle Ages, its contacts between Jews living in Europe, Africa and the Middle East will be very interesting.
 
This would be interesting indeed! There's a story (probably apocryphal) according to which the Rus weren't sure of which religion to follow, but ended up chosing Ortodox Christianity after being very impressed by the buildings of Constantinople. Might a stronger Khazaria ends up becoming more appealing to them than a Christian Orthodox Bizanthium???

If Kiev ends up Jewish, it could be the base for a strongg sedentary Jewish state. With his Southern and Eastern flancs being protected by Khazarian Nomads, this state have great chances to survive and expand. If its survives at least till the least Middle Ages, its contacts between Jews living in Europe, Africa and the Middle East will be very interesting.

I think that story was apocryphal. Kievan Rus' already had a very strong connection with the Eastern Orthodox Church (dating back to at least 861 when an attempted conversion of the Rus' Khagan may have caused his state to collapse) and many Varangians in Rus' were converts.

After Romanos I the Rus' are not going to become Jews, because the Khazars were now their bitter enemies. But before him the two peoples were allies, and through trade connections and whatnot I could potentially see a conversion happening. I think with my POD it might happen.
 
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