A Jewish Khanate

In the mid-700 to mid-800 the Khazar Khanate declared the national religion to be Judiasim. The Khazar Khanate was powerful until it was defeated and conquered by Rus and Kiv in 967-969. However, what if the Khazar Khanate were to survive?

A map of the Khazar Khanate, its the light blue country in Russia (820 AD)

World_820.png
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Would be a interresting scenario indeed. A jewish nation existing through the Middle Ages and the Rennaisance. Why not do a TL about that.
 
I believe Doug Hoff had a timeline like that on his website back in the late 90s, don't know if its still up though.
 
I believe Doug Hoff had a timeline like that on his website back in the late 90s, don't know if its still up though.
If it's the one i'm thinking, i wasn't very impressed. I might have it saved on a CD somewhere.


I might be interested enough to research this a little. I seem to remember that the defeat of the Pechenegs helped to lead to the collapse of the Kaganate.
 
the fun part would start with the first crusades, not so much becouse at least one campaing similar to the northen crusades would be launched against them, and this too is an maybe, as such a state might well be an ally against existant muslim states at the time, or later a conection with the mongol empire, and even if they lose they still have a chance of keeping a general jewish population, but becouse of the iminent imigration of european jews fleeing christian religious zeal, even those who in OTL settled in less hostile areas like warshav might rather chose to emigrate to the new promised land

this would mean said khanate could over time acumulate the bigest population of craftsmen, clerks, doctors, traveling salesmen, scholars and tradesmen of every kind, in most central asia

so unless butterflies get involved the Khazar Khanate is a regional economic powerhouse before the 1200eds

or is that a bit wanky?

IMO the mongols dont make much difference as they generally didnt mind the local population as long as they pay taxes and keep their heads down, so unless they go looking for trouble some kind of jewish state might be there for a long time, and the urban population is bound to stay jewish for good
 
I am on-and-off writing a timeline about this (Gesta Gazariorum), with a surviving Khazar state.

My take: the real weakening came after the Magyars were defeated by the Pechenegs (who were called in by Simeon of Bulgaria during is 894 trade war with Byzantium, both the Khazars and Magyars were allied to Emperor Leo VI). After that defeat in 895, the Magyars migrated into Pannonia and commenced half a century of devastating raids against all of Europe (even into Burgundy, France, and Italy). The land the Magyars occupied (called Etelkuzu, in southwestern Ukraine) was left vacant, and the Pechenegs poured in. That greatly weakened the Khazars, forcing them to withdraw to a more compact state to better defend what territory they have left.

So a good POD: the Magyars stay in Etelkuzu (which is part of my POD, although it begins a few decades earlier in MTL). The Khazars survive with much more territory, strong enough to resist any Rus' incursions.


If it were to survive, the effects would be enormous. Possibly no Ashkenazi Jews (although whether they are descended from Khazars is debatable), and a larger Caucasian Jewish population. Weaker Rus', possibly a strong Byzantium (if the Khazars help them totally crush the Bulgars, that means the entire 10th century will not be spent beating off the Bulgars).
Also, at their height the Khazars had considerable influence in Central Asia. If this continues, that might mean more of the Turks are Jewish. If the Seljuks are not Muslim, it may stop their expansion at all.


And if you use my POD, the effect of no Magyars is going to be enormous. For one, Louis IV of East Francia (Germany) is not going to die, as he died after being defeated by the Magyars. This means the Carolingians will still be supported more in East Francia, and if Louis has a son their line could continue... no Ottonians or Conradines, and maybe Germany fracturing like OTL West Francia.


There's a lot more, but I don't know if this is too much info.
 
If it were to survive, the effects would be enormous. Possibly no Ashkenazi Jews (although whether they are descended from Khazars is debatable)...

Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from the Khazars; that theory (promoted by Arthur Koestler), was proven to be false.
 
I am on-and-off writing a timeline about this (Gesta Gazariorum), with a surviving Khazar state.

My take: the real weakening came after the Magyars were defeated by the Pechenegs (who were called in by Simeon of Bulgaria during is 894 trade war with Byzantium, both the Khazars and Magyars were allied to Emperor Leo VI). After that defeat in 895, the Magyars migrated into Pannonia and commenced half a century of devastating raids against all of Europe (even into Burgundy, France, and Italy). The land the Magyars occupied (called Etelkuzu, in southwestern Ukraine) was left vacant, and the Pechenegs poured in. That greatly weakened the Khazars, forcing them to withdraw to a more compact state to better defend what territory they have left.

So a good POD: the Magyars stay in Etelkuzu (which is part of my POD, although it begins a few decades earlier in MTL). The Khazars survive with much more territory, strong enough to resist any Rus' incursions.


If it were to survive, the effects would be enormous. Possibly no Ashkenazi Jews (although whether they are descended from Khazars is debatable), and a larger Caucasian Jewish population. Weaker Rus', possibly a strong Byzantium (if the Khazars help them totally crush the Bulgars, that means the entire 10th century will not be spent beating off the Bulgars).
Also, at their height the Khazars had considerable influence in Central Asia. If this continues, that might mean more of the Turks are Jewish. If the Seljuks are not Muslim, it may stop their expansion at all.


And if you use my POD, the effect of no Magyars is going to be enormous. For one, Louis IV of East Francia (Germany) is not going to die, as he died after being defeated by the Magyars. This means the Carolingians will still be supported more in East Francia, and if Louis has a son their line could continue... no Ottonians or Conradines, and maybe Germany fracturing like OTL West Francia.


There's a lot more, but I don't know if this is too much info.

I did something about the fall of the Khazers from the Rus and I think I have figured out a reasonable POD that would help the Khazers survive.

In OTL Olega/Helen, ruler of the Rus, did not proclaim the nation religion to be Christianity as a large population were still pagan. However, is she instead did declare the state religion to be Christianity after her trip to Constantinople then there could be a real chance of civil war among the Rus especailly if Olega/Helen tried to force it on to her subjects. In an attempt to expand their power, the Khazars and Kiev declare war and destroy the Rus. This would give the Khazars a reasonable extension on life though it would be interesting to see if the Crusades would make it a later target.
 
I did something about the fall of the Khazers from the Rus and I think I have figured out a reasonable POD that would help the Khazers survive.

In OTL Olega/Helen, ruler of the Rus, did not proclaim the nation religion to be Christianity as a large population were still pagan. However, is she instead did declare the state religion to be Christianity after her trip to Constantinople then there could be a real chance of civil war among the Rus especailly if Olega/Helen tried to force it on to her subjects. In an attempt to expand their power, the Khazars and Kiev declare war and destroy the Rus. This would give the Khazars a reasonable extension on life though it would be interesting to see if the Crusades would make it a later target.

However, by the time (give or take a bit) of Olga's conversion, the Khazars had retreated even further, down to the north Caucasus area.
http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/webmap4.jpg
(Darkest blue-purple on this map)
There were strong, hostile Pecheneg khanates to the north of Khazaria, and the Khazars barely had any borders with the Rus'. So a POD of the 950s is too late. After all, it was only two decades later that Sviatoslav sacked Atil (the Khazar capital), so the state is in no way poised to take advantage of the civil war. If anyone, it would be the Pechenegs, who would gain more land to the north at the expense of the Rus' and maybe crush the Khazars later in the 10th century.
 
However, by the time (give or take a bit) of Olga's conversion, the Khazars had retreated even further, down to the north Caucasus area.
http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/webmap4.jpg
(Darkest blue-purple on this map)
There were strong, hostile Pecheneg khanates to the north of Khazaria, and the Khazars barely had any borders with the Rus'. So a POD of the 950s is too late. After all, it was only two decades later that Sviatoslav sacked Atil (the Khazar capital), so the state is in no way poised to take advantage of the civil war. If anyone, it would be the Pechenegs, who would gain more land to the north at the expense of the Rus' and maybe crush the Khazars later in the 10th century.

Your right, I thought the conversion was earlier. Then in that case your POD would probably be the best for the Khazar but how would your Khazar still have to deal with the Kabar rebellion and nomandic invasion?
 
If it's the one i'm thinking, i wasn't very impressed. I might have it saved on a CD somewhere.


I might be interested enough to research this a little. I seem to remember that the defeat of the Pechenegs helped to lead to the collapse of the Kaganate.
I know. This topic just made me feel nostalgic for my Middle school days, when his site introduced me to alternate history.
 
Your right, I thought the conversion was earlier. Then in that case your POD would probably be the best for the Khazar but how would your Khazar still have to deal with the Kabar rebellion and nomandic invasion?

Well, in my timeline I have the Kabars not rebelling because they are given land around Sambat (Kiev) to placate their rebellion. However, as the POD in my timeline is earlier than what I have written here, then it would be different.

Well, there is going to be conflict with the Pechenegs, obviously. Since the Kabars joined with the seven Magyar tribes, when the Magyars fight for the Khazars against the Pechenegs, the Kabars are going to fight too. So the rebellion could be minimized by losses in the war against the Pechenegs.

Another interesting idea I thought of: what if the Kabars migrate to Pannonia, without the Magyars (and maybe with more Khazars too)? Jewish khanate in Pannonia anyone? :D

As for the nomadic invasions, I had the idea that the Khazar khagan could use the Pechenegs as border guards (kind of like what the Rus' did with the Karakalpaks, A.K.A. Chernye Klobuki) for the Khazars. They could settle on the Khazar eastern border, between the Aral and Caspian (probably still called Khazar Sea ITTL). The Pechenegs would be a buffer for any incoming invasions, which could buy the Khazars a few more centuries of existence.
 
Well, in my timeline I have the Kabars not rebelling because they are given land around Sambat (Kiev) to placate their rebellion. However, as the POD in my timeline is earlier than what I have written here, then it would be different.

Well, there is going to be conflict with the Pechenegs, obviously. Since the Kabars joined with the seven Magyar tribes, when the Magyars fight for the Khazars against the Pechenegs, the Kabars are going to fight too. So the rebellion could be minimized by losses in the war against the Pechenegs.

Another interesting idea I thought of: what if the Kabars migrate to Pannonia, without the Magyars (and maybe with more Khazars too)? Jewish khanate in Pannonia anyone? :D

As for the nomadic invasions, I had the idea that the Khazar khagan could use the Pechenegs as border guards (kind of like what the Rus' did with the Karakalpaks, A.K.A. Chernye Klobuki) for the Khazars. They could settle on the Khazar eastern border, between the Aral and Caspian (probably still called Khazar Sea ITTL). The Pechenegs would be a buffer for any incoming invasions, which could buy the Khazars a few more centuries of existence.

Interesting sounds like a good TL. I also read that the Khazar had a tendency to attack nations who mistreat Jews in their nations. Byzantine-Khazar war maybe? :p
 
Interesting sounds like a good TL. I also read that the Khazar had a tendency to attack nations who mistreat Jews in their nations. Byzantine-Khazar war maybe? :p

Thanks.

The Byzantines were allies until Romanos I started persecuting the Jews, so before that a war against them wouldn't happen. But the retaliation is an interesting aspect of their culture. Besides attacking other nations, sometimes the Khazars would kill their own citizens who happened to be of the religion persecuting the Jews. IE: Muslims in Persia destroy a synagogue and massacre Jews there, the Khazars retaliate by destroying a mosque in Khazaran (the Muslim city connected to the Khazar capital of Atil by a pontoon bridge).

The alliance couldn't last forever, Byzantine alliances with barbarians never did. So after an emperor came along who persecuted the Jews, they would become enemies. If the Khazars were strong enough, they could defeat the Varangians (Rus') who would be called down the Dnieper and Volga.

Maybe ITTL the Khazars would support the Bulgars to take Constantinople, or even conspire with the Arabs too. The Khazars were generally tolerant of Muslims (except for the whole retaliation thing), so Byzantium might be in a lot of trouble.
 
How would the Khazars deal with the Cumans? And the Volga Bolgars?

The Volga Bulgars were traditional allies with - and a tributary of - the Khazars. All it would take is word of a destroyed synagogue to reach the Khazars in 921, and he might decide not to let ibn Fadlan sail through their territory up the Volga. This would mean that the Volga Bulgars stay pagan and a Khazar tributary.

As for the Kipchaks, they could be dealt with in various ways. One would be to say that due to butterflies with the Pechenegs weakened and Khazars staying strong, the Kimek Khaganate prevents the Kipchaks from breaking off. The Kimek Khaganate had existed for centuries alongside the Khazar Khaganate, so I doubt the former people were interested in expanding.

Another way that I mentioned in an earlier post would be to use the defeated Pechenegs as border guards on the east, transplanting them there to absorb Kipchak attacks. Eventually the Kipchaks might re-absorbed into the Kimek Khaganate, or they might invade and get defeated, absorbed like the Pechenegs.
 
Let's go back to the more famous later khanates-

What if one of the Mongol royal family converted to Judaism? There was Sartak who was Nestorian after all, and also Faaelin's Prince of Peace had Orda Khan becoming a Christian. If Mongol high generals and direct descendants of Genghis could be Christians, why not Jews?
 
Top