A Horn of Bronze--The Shaping of Fusania and Beyond
- Thread starter Arkenfolm
- Start date
Yes, (almost) all CE. Whenever I use the ATL Fusanian calendar (which determined 343 AD to be its year 1) I believe I usually tried to put the AD date in brackets afterwards. I'm doing the same with Japanese era names in the entry I'm currently writing.
Love explorers braving the unknown.
And Sheiyiiq'aani (Kamchatka) and Chishima are a lot more productive than I thought.
This is going to be huge. I can't wait to see the impacts the Northern trade has had on the Ainu in this tl when the Mongols really press their claim. It'll be interesting to see how they hold.
And Sheiyiiq'aani (Kamchatka) and Chishima are a lot more productive than I thought.
This is going to be huge. I can't wait to see the impacts the Northern trade has had on the Ainu in this tl when the Mongols really press their claim. It'll be interesting to see how they hold.
Wow, finally reached the current point in the TL after reading it on and off for a while. This is by far my favorite Native American based timeline on the site-you see “alternate civ” timelines sometimes, but rarely one so well researched and original-the only one I can think of that compares is the Lands of Red and Gold. The increasing contact between North Asia and the Ringitsu is definitely one of my favorite parts, so I’m very excited to see the next chapter.
Sheiyiiq'aani and Chishima are indeed capable of being surprisingly productive, but it takes a culture adapted to that environment to do so. It's practically the same as the southern coast of Alaska (and the Aleutians at worst) and that's the exact environment that Ringitsu (which I probably should've emphasised are to varying degrees assimilated Aleuts/Unangakh and would include Aleut slaves and freedmen) whose origins lay in the Aleutians and have agriculture based on local plants. Riceroot for instance has the common name "Kamchatka fritillary", the Latin translation of which is the scientific name. To a degree, imagine Norway but with more earthquakes and volcanoes and tsunamis.
Unfortunately the Mongols were already aiding enemies of the Ainu (the Nivkh, called by the Chinese "Jiliemi" and TTL termed Mishihase) as early as 1264, so only the earliest Kamchatka trade is in place at that point. But I've definitely accounted for that, since all sorts of strange things happen OTL.
I hope it's rewarding enough. Thanks for reading.
I finally finished that general overview of the Americas and am slowly turning it back to Fusania, so the offshoot of the Ringitsu in Kamchatka was my first focus. And I thought there was a particular event in the late 13th century OTL such a thing might influence.
Thank you! Admittedly my research was shoddier in the first 2 years of TTL to the point I'd want to redo at least some of the entries. But now I think I'm doing it well enough.
North Asia is an extremely underrated region of the world since I think a lot of people treat its history and natives as "like American Indians, but conquered by Russia and oh yeah they have reindeer" even though they were constantly in contact and importing goods from East Asian civilisations (and especially its periphery i.e. the Jurchens and Turko-Mongolic states). At the same time, they were in plenty of contact with the Inuit across the Bering Strait as trading partners and often enemies. There's a lot of different PODs I can think of.
Map 14-Cultural areas of the Misebian world in the late 13th century
Here is the map of the Misebian world TTL in the late 13th century. Refer to Chapter 85 for the details. This map includes the various regional cultures of Misebians, which is more or less similar to OTL. However, the Central Plains Misebian only became truly "Misebian" TTL because of the greater development in the region (OTL it was the comparatively simpler Steed-Kisker Culture). As always, cultural borders are approximate. Non-Misebian groups have their locations approximated on the map by simple labels in a different font.
I have also experimented with displaying various trade routes, which are intended to illustrate the connections between cities (or lack thereof). Even smaller trade routes exist too, of course, but are mostly not portrayed here. I would say they are broadly similar to OTL.
I will be posting a map of the Northern Misebians/adjacent groups and possibly one more of the past batch of entries before I do my next post.
I have also experimented with displaying various trade routes, which are intended to illustrate the connections between cities (or lack thereof). Even smaller trade routes exist too, of course, but are mostly not portrayed here. I would say they are broadly similar to OTL.
I will be posting a map of the Northern Misebians/adjacent groups and possibly one more of the past batch of entries before I do my next post.
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Annoying. Can't read any of the maps now. Are they linked from another site maybe, or do you attack them directly to the post?
Finally caught up with recent updates
The Yuan Empire taking interest in the trans-Bering trade network is something I didn't think of, but does make sense- a fascinating outcome! And I would like to once again praise the immense amount of research and detail going into this TL- the Ainu, especially pre-modern Ainu, are not at all a well known people. Yet you managed to put so much detail into their interaction with the Ringitsu! Sounds like they're going to do pretty well compared to OTL.
The Yuan Empire taking interest in the trans-Bering trade network is something I didn't think of, but does make sense- a fascinating outcome! And I would like to once again praise the immense amount of research and detail going into this TL- the Ainu, especially pre-modern Ainu, are not at all a well known people. Yet you managed to put so much detail into their interaction with the Ringitsu! Sounds like they're going to do pretty well compared to OTL.
I see the maps no problem.
The latest one seems to be linked from imgur, which is in my experience a good and reliable image host
Spectacular map and I think I agree with you that your latest map is an improvement on previous maps (that is not to say the old maps were bad, just that this one is better than your already high standard).
Lots of good and reliable internet resources might as well not exist, reading from China. That might be it. I lose access to a lot of linked content that way, unfortunately. Only way to be sure is to keep things local on AH dot com.
Just from reading the thread, obviously the maps were working for most readers.
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Recently I have been considering spinning off the two chapters of the Mongol Invasion of Japan into its own TL. I have a specific vision which to my surprise is actually somewhat plausible by OTL standards. I would rank it as more plausible than this TL's POD (or most other "alternate agriculture" TL PODs) or the PODs of other Mongol-related TLs. All this TL does is increase the probability that my concept for Mongol-Japanese conflicts occurs. It's perfectly plausible, albeit unlikely, for the Mongols/Yuan to have taken an alternate approach OTL, just as it is for the Kamakura Shogunate to have reacted in the manner I envisioned.
I believe I've done some good research and I notice there are very few TLs here for what is a very pivotal moment in Japanese history (and to a lesser degree, the history of China and all the nations and tribes around them). If I went ahead with this TL, I would reduce the planned Yuan-Japanese chapters here to mere summaries (which is probably what they deserve, honestly) of my chapters in the other TL which would more or less be canon to this. The benefit I believe is showing something interesting without the reader needing to even skim what I've compiled here. The downside is that I'd be splitting my effort between two TLs, even if I don't plan on the other TL going for too long. Either way I plan on one more map in the next week or two and probably an update by the end of the month.
Is there any interest in this spinoff-but-not-really TL? I find it very fascinating to write and more conventional alt-history, and I don't think it's against the rules here to have the research you did for one TL accidently inspire another.
Unfortunately, all the best studies on the pre-modern Ainu and their lifestyle (including their link to the Emishi) are in Japanese so I'm only getting a summary of the research from what's available in English. But even from that summary, I was amazed just how well they'd work with the North Asia-Alaska trade TTL. Considering OTL Ainu-Itelmen interactions in Kamchatka (where they influenced a few southerly Itelmen tribes much as the Ringitsu do TTL), it makes me wonder if they actually could've made their way to Alaska before the Russians did.
I believe I've done some good research and I notice there are very few TLs here for what is a very pivotal moment in Japanese history (and to a lesser degree, the history of China and all the nations and tribes around them). If I went ahead with this TL, I would reduce the planned Yuan-Japanese chapters here to mere summaries (which is probably what they deserve, honestly) of my chapters in the other TL which would more or less be canon to this. The benefit I believe is showing something interesting without the reader needing to even skim what I've compiled here. The downside is that I'd be splitting my effort between two TLs, even if I don't plan on the other TL going for too long. Either way I plan on one more map in the next week or two and probably an update by the end of the month.
Is there any interest in this spinoff-but-not-really TL? I find it very fascinating to write and more conventional alt-history, and I don't think it's against the rules here to have the research you did for one TL accidently inspire another.
It's working on my end. I have always attached the maps from Imgur where it is located here. I don't know if there's any good alternative, since even though I could upload the file here, I've heard in the past that site administration prefers users link to offsite hosts.
Well to be fair, the Yuan themselves don't know the ultimate origin, they just think the barbarians are strangely wealthier than before and to a degree are "buying into hype". I think the Ainu are incredibly underestimated. They are an example of what has been described as a "conflict between anthropology and history" (which has also been said about anthropology focusing on post-Mississippian peoples), where the culture being described is assumed to have existed for "ages and ages" without change. In the case of the Ainu, it's clear the "classic" Ainu culture evolved because of Japanese interference.
Unfortunately, all the best studies on the pre-modern Ainu and their lifestyle (including their link to the Emishi) are in Japanese so I'm only getting a summary of the research from what's available in English. But even from that summary, I was amazed just how well they'd work with the North Asia-Alaska trade TTL. Considering OTL Ainu-Itelmen interactions in Kamchatka (where they influenced a few southerly Itelmen tribes much as the Ringitsu do TTL), it makes me wonder if they actually could've made their way to Alaska before the Russians did.
Thank you. I try to learn better mapmaking as I go along, just like this TL taught me how to properly research. Although so far all I've mostly just learned some Inkscape shortcuts.
Yeah, that's the Great Firewall for you: doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the site itself; it just doesn't exist from here.
...Not sure I get where you're coming from, here. I can see most maps in most threads, I think.
Look. I am one guy. You may have zero other readers with this problem. You did nothing wrong, and while I disagree with the perception above, I don't want to be rude continuing to disrupt the thread with this. I will PM you.
Really miss oggling those maps, though.
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I too long for more Asian focused TLs, so that's a yes from me.
Map 15-Upper Misebi and the Great Lakes in the late 13th century
Here is the promised map, this one covering the Upper Misebi [Mississippi] basin, the Great Lakes, and the northern Plains. It specifically focuses on the seven confederations of the Upper Misebian culture which because of their increasingly hierarchal, aquaculture-centered nature are becoming the first state societies in eastern North America. As before, other cultures are labeled on the map as are a few important trade routes (which are by no means the only trade routes). I added a few extra rivers and lakes to the map than previous basemaps just because it focuses on the Upper Midwest which is known for that.
Next update will probably take some time since I rewrote what I had written for my new TL. In any case, it will just be a Horn of Bronze-flavoured summary.
Next update will probably take some time since I rewrote what I had written for my new TL. In any case, it will just be a Horn of Bronze-flavoured summary.
