A History of the Confederate States of America

Looks very interesting! I look forward to reading this timeline.

In my President Hamlin TL, I came to similar conclusions about what an armistice treaty between the North and South would look like. I like your plebiscite idea, and I think that's realistic given how divided the border states were.

Out of curiosity, when (and what) is the POD? Since Stonewall Jackson is still alive, I'm assuming it's before May 1863.
 

jahenders

Banned
It has to be. To get to the point discussed, you'd need to pretty much continue the Union's 1861-62 level of success into 1863-64.

Out of curiosity, when (and what) is the POD? Since Stonewall Jackson is still alive, I'm assuming it's before May 1863.
 
No way Maryland goes but Missouri stays... Missouri only stayed OTL due to military interference. Votes for succession had actually already occurred OTL.
 
I am not sure how Kentucky goes. I mean, this state was practically dominated by the Union in 1864, and had been since 1862. The Confederates cocked that up completely by invading the state first.
 
I am not sure how Kentucky goes. I mean, this state was practically dominated by the Union in 1864, and had been since 1862. The Confederates cocked that up completely by invading the state first.

It's a different Civil War, it's been stated before and on the first chapter they outright say it
 
It's a different Civil War, it's been stated before and on the first chapter they outright say it

Shouldn't this be ASB then? We're talking about massive PoDs that are unrealistic creating an unrealistic world. As interesting as the concept might be, it's still ASB.
 
Why asb? We don't get the full picture of the war, but it's implied the south did considerably better. Is it asb because the south did well?
 
Why asb? We don't get the full picture of the war, but it's implied the south did considerably better. Is it asb because the south did well?

It's ASB because there seems to be a lot of handwaving after the fact PoDs coming into play. Original post didn't say anything about Stonewall Jackson having lived, etc, but yet we're told that's one thing that happened when it's questions how the South did so well. I think we need clear, concise, accurate, and realistic PoDs that are declared and then we could see if it's ASB. And frankly without massive PoDs yes, the South ever WINNING (especially to the point of this TL) is in fact ASB. Cards being stacked against the South go back to the 1600s.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
So all is as historical up to Lincoln's election in 1860.

1864​

Abraham Lincoln loses to General McClellan in the race for the White House. The General had been running on a platform of negotiations with the southern Confederacy in hopes of ending the bloody conflict. Northern discontent with the war had been growing since the defeat at the Fourth Battle of Bull Run between the Army of Northern Virginia and that of the Potomac.

Though that was only the latest of a growing chain of losses by the Union armies. Sabotage in northern factories and the Great Fire of Chicago in 1863 had done a major deal of damage to the Illinois economy. With the war raging supplies were scarce, and the city was in ruins, only adding more animosity between the populace and the Lincoln government, ironically the President's home state.

After the election of McClellan, Lincoln ordered a last ditch attempt to strike at the Confederate heart in hopes of ending the war once and for all before the President-Elect had the chance to start talks. Reinforcing the Army of the Potomac with half a division of infantry and 3 regiments of cavalry, on the night of December 12th, 1864 General Ulysses S Grant marched across the Army’s namesake, marching south towards Richmond.

Within an hour of entering the Confederacy, the Army of Northern Virginia collided with its northern counterpart, having been entrenched just a few miles south of the river. The northern force fought valiantly, but a smaller force under Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson moved behind the Union lines and cut off their line of retreat.

13 hours later the battle was over, with Jackson's army in pursuit accompanied by 3 regiments from Lee’s main force. The Army of Northern Virginia remained holding about 16,000 Union prisoners, most of which were held in quickly constructed camps after being disarmed.

By the 15th of December word had spread among the north and south about the Fifth Battle of Bull Run, cementing the stigma of failure which was to be attached to the Lincoln Presidency. President-Elect McClellan called the actions of Lincoln “useless….and uncalled for”.

The time between then and March 4th of 1865 were quite peaceful with Union forces being slowly pulled out of the deeper areas of the Confederacy, and local ceasefires began to spread across the front.

1865

The inauguration of President McClellan was a major turn in American politics, in his speech the newly elected Commander in Chief made it clear that peace was the only option;

“ 4 years ago on this very day, we the people of the United States saw our nation divided, our southern brethren had left us, and had attempted it in peace. Only we did not let them leave in peace. Our dear President Lincoln thought it would be honorable and constitutional to try and coerce our brother states in the Confederacy to rejoin our Union. But after 4 years of terrible war, he has been proven wrong” -Excerpt from President McClellan’s inauguration speech.

After the conclusion of his speech the new President sent a telegram to the Confederate government in Richmond, with the proposal of an immediate nation wide ceasefire. Richmond accepted the proposal, and on March 6th, 1865, at 3 PM, EST, the War of Independence had ended.

Talks began several weeks later in a small room in General Lees estate of Arlington, with Thomas Jackson and Robert Lee among the Confederate delegation, with George H. Pendleton, the US Vice President, among the Union delegation. Talks ranged for weeks, with nitpicks and other issues taking up more time than most of the larger ones. By July the 6th, the delegations had hammered out a treaty which would come to be known as the Treaty of Arlington, it laid out the following terms;

  • The states of Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri would be given plebiscites on which nation to join, with forces from sides vacating the 3 states completely, leaving it to local Militia.
  • The status of Western Virginia was to be returned to the Confederate States, though it would have its own plebiscite on whether or not to become its own state.
  • Neither side would be charged with reparations.
  • The Arizona and New Mexico Territories would remain in the Union. (This was debated hotly at first, but the Confederate delegation agreed to concede on the issue in return for plebiscites in various states).
  • The Indian Territories would become its own sovereign nation. (The Confederacy also demanded these territories, but eventually conceded to the region being independent. )
  • All Union troops would be given a 2 month period to withdraw from the Confederacy.
  • The United States would bar runaway slaves from entering the Union, but any that left with Union armies or had already left the South would not be pursued.
  • In the event of the secession of Maryland, the United States will have a 2 year period to evacuate the the District of Columbia, after which the district will be ceded to the Confederacy.
  • The United States will recognize the Confederate States of America as its own nation.

So all is as historical up to Lincoln's election in 1860?

Best,
 
I'm sure they are unrealistic if your looking at OTL Civil War, the POD is further back than the civil war, if you hadn't noticed Stonewall Jackson isn't dead, and a great many other things have changed in this timeline.

Regardless, the timeline is based on the premise of that treaty, from which I am trying to create a Confederate timeline where North America is not always locked in war.

So are you moreso playing into a butterfly net with PODs which regardles happen similar to the Quasi-war style tl? History happens as normal but there are different careers for certain people and even events?
 
Im writing a timeline. Just because we dont start at the POD does not invalidate it.

Napoleon, if you believe it to be ASB, then please read other threads.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You know, there's a reason there is an ASB forum, and

Im writing a timeline. Just because we dont start at the POD does not invalidate it. Napoleon, if you believe it to be ASB, then please read other threads.

You know, there's a reason there is an ASB forum, and that there's a non-ASB forum (two of them, actually, pre- and post-1900), and that both allow comments...;)

Best,
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Shouldn't this be ASB then? We're talking about massive PoDs that are unrealistic creating an unrealistic world. As interesting as the concept might be, it's still ASB.

That's not what ASB means. ASB means something that could not possibly have happened or required supernatural intervention, not just something that was unlikely.
 
Shouldn't this be ASB then? We're talking about massive PoDs that are unrealistic creating an unrealistic world. As interesting as the concept might be, it's still ASB.

It's ASB because there seems to be a lot of handwaving after the fact PoDs coming into play. Original post didn't say anything about Stonewall Jackson having lived, etc, but yet we're told that's one thing that happened when it's questions how the South did so well. I think we need clear, concise, accurate, and realistic PoDs that are declared and then we could see if it's ASB. And frankly without massive PoDs yes, the South ever WINNING (especially to the point of this TL) is in fact ASB. Cards being stacked against the South go back to the 1600s.

You know, there's a reason there is an ASB forum, and that there's a non-ASB forum (two of them, actually, pre- and post-1900), and that both allow comments...;)

Best,

That's not what ASB means. ASB means something that could not possibly have happened or required supernatural intervention, not just something that was unlikely.


Just to clarify what ASB means according to CalBear.

ASB does not mean improbable. It doesn't even mean poorly written. It means the situation requires the intervention of an outside agency of infinite (or near infinite) power.

A thread say that The Reich could have conquered the world because the Nazi scientists were all that & a bag of chips is both improbable and, often, poorly researched. It is not ASB.

If the exact same thread has the Nazi scientists using time travel to bring back items from 2015, that is ASB.

Geological POD are ASB.

"Evolutionary" POD (WI Pigs could fly and they all owned Chevy trucks) are ASB.

It can be incredibly frustrating to see someone cling to an idea that is completely without merit, but unless they intentionally go into Troll territory, there is no specific violation of Board policy. There are MANY threads here that members have issues with (including even the very popular ones, including the ones that are in the top five views; having one of those that has been so blessed, I can state that categorically). If you find it frustrating, or even simply annoying to the point it gives you no pleasure in reading it, don't. Start your own thread, or read ones that do appeal to you.
 
I'm simply looking for something other than "oh, that's different because BY THE WAY, there's another PoD I didnt mention". I have never seen on this board anything where the PoD(s) are "hidden" and we just go into a timeline of changes that make no outside sense since we don't know the PoD. Things can look like ASB when changes are made in an ATL when there's nothing other than "divine intervention" making the change because a PoD was "hidden" and not told. Until it's brought up and the OP simply now tells us things like "Stonewall Jackson didn't die". I'm looking for the PoD(s) so I understand HOW we got to this point, and if the PoD(s) don't make sense for how we got to where we are, then YES it would be divine intervention and thereby ASB because it's impossible given the declared PoD(s).

Am I wrong for wanting to know the PoDs?
 
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