A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)

[Geekhis Khan]

Chapter 11: The Call of the Magic Kingdom (Cont’d)
Excerpt from Jim Henson: Storyteller, an authorized biography by Jay O’Brian.

In October of 1980 Jim Henson and David Lazer met with the Disney accounting and finance committee, something he was entitled to as a major shareholder. The meeting was organized by Stan Kinsey, who recounts an interesting encounter:

I recall we were busy setting up for the meeting, running against the clock. Jim Henson and Card Walker weren’t expected to show up for a few minutes, so I was working with a young employee trying to get the overhead set up and the transparencies ready in time. I barely registered this tall man with a beard and a flowery shirt entering and taking a seat at the middle of the table. He had a guy next to him in a suit, and they started looking through one of the binders I had my secretary put together for the meeting. I immediately knew they had to be some of the Henson boys since none of my people would have dared worn that outfit to a meeting…or worn that beard.

Someone started joking about the “Hippie” on the way, sure that he’ll want us to serve granola at the commissary or redistribute the executive salaries to all the walk-arounds or something. Many in the room chuckled, but I cut him off. No need to irritate Henson’s people at the table. The bearded guy and his suited partner, seemingly not hearing the snide comments, start asking questions of Dave[1] from accounting, who was trying to answer them while also getting the table ready for the Bigwigs to arrive. Meanwhile, I’m arguing with the young employee – Eric, or something – about the fonts on the projected cost curves, largely ignoring the bearded guy, when suddenly I got that feeling you get when the Bigwigs enter the room and I turned to see Card Walker entering with Ron Miller and CFO Mike Bagnall. “Ah, I see Jim made it already,” Card said as he took the seat at the head of the table and frowned.

I realized with horror that the bearded man was Jim Henson. The other guy was David Lazer, Jim’s friend and Muppet Show producer. I’d ignored the guest of honor for several minutes! Jim just smiled and waved, and we got down to the business at hand. We went into the presentation, me struggling to overcome this awkward start the whole time. Card interrupted on occasion, but Jim mostly stayed quiet, only occasionally raising his hand to ask a question in a quiet voice. They were, surprisingly at the time, smart questions too, mostly about available funding lines for creative efforts, studio improvements, EPCOT timelines, and other things directly related to creative efforts.

In hindsight it was silly of me to think that a man who built an international business empire out of felt and google-eyes wouldn’t understand the basics of corporate finance.

It was the start of a productive and generally friendly relationship between Jim and Stan. In time Jim gifted Bagnall and Kinsey with Disney’s own version of the ironic Shrine to the Almighty Dollar that sat in the Henson Associates office in Manhattan. “I’ll cherish that silly little shrine to the day I die,” said Stan.

Jim Henson's Shrine to the Almighty Dollar (Image source: "jimhenson-themuppetmaster.tumblr.com")


[1] Fictional, though there’s always a “Dave” from accounting. It’s an immutable law of nature.

 

[Nivek]

Jim Henson's Shrine to the Almighty Dollar

That is something actually very funny and more in disney having one too now

 

[Kalvan]

So, what will be the knock on effects with other parks and chains? Universal has Universal Studios Hollywood Park in Burbank, but until King Kong joins the Backlot Tour in five years, it's pretty much small potatoes. Elsewhere in Southern Cal we have Magic Mountain at Valencia, which was just bought by Six Flags, Knott's Berry Farm in Buena Park, and Sea World San Diego, plus at least four boardwalks still alive and kicking between San Diego and San Luis Obispo counties.

Meanwhile in Florida, we have Sea World Orlando, Busch Gardens Tampa, Circus World/Boardwalk and Baseball, Fun Spots Orlando and Kissimmee/St Cloud, and if you squint, Lowrey Park Zoo back when admission was free, and it also had amusement rides and a good arcade, too.

Also, since the Great America chain won't snag the Looney Tunes and DC Comics licenses for two years, might we see Warner Bros Movie Land(s) in the Western Hemisphere?

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Can't wait to see how Animation is affected by Jim's presence.

 

[Igeo654]

Can't wait to see how Animation is affected by Jim's presence.

For the better I dare say. Jim always had an eye for talent. Carol Spinney could have told you that, rest his soul.

 

[Kalvan]

Oh, and what's going to happen with The Great Space Coaster, created by and starring a cast full of Sesame Street and Muppet Show alumni?

 

[Igeo654]

Oh, and what's going to happen with The Great Space Coaster, created by and starring a cast full of Sesame Street and Muppet Show alumni?

Probably a fixture of MGM or Tomorrowland. I'm sure Jim would be on board with expanding the Disney World Resort. Although maybe he might do a partnership with another studio to make the park instead, like Paramount.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

So, what will be the knock on effects with other parks and chains? Universal has Universal Studios Hollywood Park in Burbank, but until King Kong joins the Backlot Tour in five years, it's pretty much small potatoes. Elsewhere in Southern Cal we have Magic Mountain at Valencia, which was just bought by Six Flags, Knott's Berry Farm in Buena Park, and Sea World San Diego, plus at least four boardwalks still alive and kicking between San Diego and San Luis Obispo counties.

Meanwhile in Florida, we have Sea World Orlando, Busch Gardens Tampa, Circus World/Boardwalk and Baseball, Fun Spots Orlando and Kissimmee/St Cloud, and if you squint, Lowrey Park Zoo back when admission was free, and it also had amusement rides and a good arcade, too.

Also, since the Great America chain won't snag the Looney Tunes and DC Comics licenses for two years, might we see Warner Bros Movie Land(s) in the Western Hemisphere?

Oh, and what's going to happen with The Great Space Coaster, created by and starring a cast full of Sesame Street and Muppet Show alumni?

I'll need to put some thought into all of this, frankly. I'd forgotten about Coaster.

 

[Igeo654]

I'll need to put some thought into all of this, frankly. I'd forgotten about Coaster.

In my opinion, the Great Space Coaster could easily be made better by Kermit Love and Jims Marton and Henson working on it together. It might even be a good original show for the Disney channel.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Chapter 3: The Gentle Giant
Post from the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Terrell Little.

I remember one day, in the fall of 1980, we got news that President Ron Miller was coming, and that he was bringing a guest. We all knew about the deal at the time, so it was no real surprise when he walked in with a bearded man whom we all immediately recognized as Jim Henson. Jim was tall and lanky and walked with a slight hunch forward, which I attributed to years spent bent over with a frog on his arm.

Normally when you have a new executive type come in on a tour of Animation it’s like Atilla touring Rome. Not Jim. He was like a kid the whole time. He loved every image we showed him, old or new. I remember his self-effacing smile and his schoolboy-like excitement every time he looked over a picture. He marveled at original cels from Snow White and Steamboat Willi, treating them like a pilgrim holding the Holy Grail. He smiled at each new hand-drawing for Fox & Hound. All of us animators almost instantly recognized him as one of our own and we all rushed to slip him the little drawings we made of Mickey and Kermit or Donald arguing with Sam the Eagle, which soon overflowed his pockets.

Most of us watched the Muppet Show at the time and had seen and loved the movie (It was a screaming hit when they screened it here). I mean, creativity, be it celluloid or felt, will catch the eye of creative types. And it still amazes me the expressiveness and personality Jim and his crew can put into felt. I wished I could have gotten such expressiveness out of the faces of my cels on Fox & Hound at the time!

And it turns out he knew Tim Burton. Mike Peraza and Patty Paulick too. They’d all worked as background Muppeteers[1] on The Muppet Movie for the big finale[2].

No kidding. Of all the animators that one would expect to be a former Muppeteer, Tim would have been most people’s last guess. But, sure enough, he’d worked briefly on The Muppet Movie in a small role, working a background Muppet during the grand finale. The two shook hands and Jim and Tim both smiled brightly.

Tim Burton at Disney Animation c1980 (Image source Steve Hulett at "www.cartoonbrew.com")

A small world after all. I guess the man behind Uncle Deadly and the Great Gonzo would hardly be put out by someone as weird as Tim.

Of course, then he got to meet Woolie Reitherman, one of the last of Walt’s Nine Old Men. We didn’t know what to expect there. Woolie was old school as they come. “What Would Walt Do” to the last. It was Woolie who insisted on recycling animation, not to save money like everyone believes (it costs pretty much the same as new animation) but as a way to both ensure quality and ensure that it was “Walt’s” style of animation.

Woolie Reitherman c1980 (Image source "walt-disney-movies-series.fandom.com")

Woolie intimidated a lot of the young animators. He had this hard charging intensity to him that came across as domineering to some. But he and Jim were soon laughing as Woolie gleefully recounted the old days with Walt, Jim enthusiastically soaking in every anecdote, saying little, but asking many questions. Some of my fellow animators assumed that Jim was sucking up to Woolie, trying to manipulate him, but I didn’t see it that way. Jim seemed sincerely interested in life under Walt and wanted to hear how the studio had been in the past.

And then, just as he was about to leave, someone (Joe Ranft, if I recall) asked him, “Hey Jim, what’s next for the Muppets?”

Ron Miller kind of frowned, but Jim smiled, and started to tell us about The Dark Crystal. We all sat there, fascinated, as he described this dark, Grimm Brothers fairytale about elfin Gelflings and vulture-like Skeksis. He even sketched a few quick drawings of it all, claiming “I’ll never do the Brian Froud originals justice”. We were speechless. It was something totally new! It was like seeing into the future of entertainment. Burton in particular seemed spellbound and earned a few scowls for openly asking – right in front of the company President! – if Jim had any openings.

By the time Jim left, there was a new feeling of promise and joy in the offices. It’s hard to explain. We all just wanted to work with this guy[3]. He was so quiet and modest, but at the same time so energetic and driven. The future to Woolie’s past.

Yet even Woolie seemed upbeat. One animator even swore he overheard Woolie saying, “he reminds me a little bit of Walt”.

- ∞ - ​

And with this post, Part I comes to an end. Part II begins shortly.

​

[1] Jim despised the term “Muppeteer,” considering it kitschy and droll and never used it, preferring “Muppet performer”. The press and others still used the hated term, however.

[2] Absolutely true! Peraza was Emmet Otter and his then classmate and future wife Patty Paulick was MA otter. I’ve yet to determine what Muppet Burton played. Director John Landis (Animal House, Blues Brothers) was also one of the guest Muppet performers in that scene.

Image source "muppet.fandom.com/"

[3] I’ve read numerous accounts from employees of Jim Henson who related similar experiences.

 

[Brainbin]

Of course, then he got to meet Woolie Reitherman, one of the last of Walt’s Nine Old Men. We didn’t know what to expect there. Woolie was old school as they come. “What Would Walt Do” to the last. It was Woolie who insisted on recycling animation, not to save money like everyone believes (it costs pretty much the same as new animation) but as a way to both ensure quality and ensure that it was “Walt’s” style of animation.

This is fascinating if true - and I'm sure it is - and it also explains why the two movies guiltiest of this animation recycling were the first two after Walt died (Aristocats and especially Robin Hood) - both of which were solely directed by Reitherman (he co-directed Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh and The Rescuers in '77).

And then, just as he was about to leave, someone (Joe Ranft, if I recall) asked him, “Hey Jim, what’s next for the Muppets?”

I forgot to mention earlier but Joe Ranft was one of the unsung heroes at Disney/Pixar (one recent article on Lasseter's indiscretions outright refers to him as his conscience) so it's nice to see him being so prominently featured here.

And with this post, Part I comes to an end. Part II begins shortly.

Congratulations on the completion of an amazing Part I!

 

[Igeo654]

Chapter 3: The Gentle Giant
Post from the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Terrell Little.

I remember one day, in the fall of 1980, we got news that President Ron Miller was coming, and that he was bringing a guest. We all knew about the deal at the time, so it was no real surprise when he walked in with a bearded man whom we all immediately recognized as Jim Henson. Jim was tall and lanky and walked with a slight hunch forward, which I attributed to years spent bent over with a frog on his arm.

Normally when you have a new executive type come in on a tour of Animation it’s like Atilla touring Rome. Not Jim. He was like a kid the whole time. He loved every image we showed him, old or new. I remember his self-effacing smile and his schoolboy-like excitement every time he looked over a picture. He marveled at original cels from Snow White and Steamboat Willi, treating them like a pilgrim holding the Holy Grail. He smiled at each new hand-drawing for Fox & Hound. All of us animators almost instantly recognized him as one of our own and we all rushed to slip him the little drawings we made of Mickey and Kermit or Donald arguing with Sam the Eagle, which soon overflowed his pockets.

Most of us watched the Muppet Show at the time and had seen and loved the movie (It was a screaming hit when they screened it here). I mean, creativity, be it celluloid or felt, will catch the eye of creative types. And it still amazes me the expressiveness and personality Jim and his crew can put into felt. I wished I could have gotten such expressiveness out of the faces of my cels on Fox & Hound at the time!

And it turns out he knew Tim Burton. Mike Peraza and Patty Paulick too. They’d all worked as background Muppeteers[1] on The Muppet Movie for the big finale[2].

No kidding. Of all the animators that one would expect to be a former Muppeteer, Tim would have been most people’s last guess. But, sure enough, he’d worked briefly on The Muppet Movie in a small role, working a background Muppet during the grand finale. The two shook hands and Jim and Tim both smiled brightly.

Tim Burton at Disney Animation c1980 (Image source Steve Hulett at "www.cartoonbrew.com")

A small world after all. I guess the man behind Uncle Deadly and the Great Gonzo would hardly be put out by someone as weird as Tim.

Of course, then he got to meet Woolie Reitherman, one of the last of Walt’s Nine Old Men. We didn’t know what to expect there. Woolie was old school as they come. “What Would Walt Do” to the last. It was Woolie who insisted on recycling animation, not to save money like everyone believes (it costs pretty much the same as new animation) but as a way to both ensure quality and ensure that it was “Walt’s” style of animation.

Woolie Reitherman c1980 (Image source "walt-disney-movies-series.fandom.com")

Woolie intimidated a lot of the young animators. He had this hard charging intensity to him that came across as domineering to some. But he and Jim were soon laughing as Woolie gleefully recounted the old days with Walt, Jim enthusiastically soaking in every anecdote, saying little, but asking many questions. Some of my fellow animators assumed that Jim was sucking up to Woolie, trying to manipulate him, but I didn’t see it that way. Jim seemed sincerely interested in life under Walt and wanted to hear how the studio had been in the past.

And then, just as he was about to leave, someone (Joe Ranft, if I recall) asked him, “Hey Jim, what’s next for the Muppets?”

Ron Miller kind of frowned, but Jim smiled, and started to tell us about The Dark Crystal. We all sat there, fascinated, as he described this dark, Grimm Brothers fairytale about elfin Gelflings and vulture-like Skeksis. He even sketched a few quick drawings of it all, claiming “I’ll never do the Brian Froud originals justice”. We were speechless. It was something totally new! It was like seeing into the future of entertainment. Burton in particular seemed spellbound and earned a few scowls for openly asking – right in front of the company President! – if Jim had any openings.

By the time Jim left, there was a new feeling of promise and joy in the offices. It’s hard to explain. We all just wanted to work with this guy[3]. He was so quiet and modest, but at the same time so energetic and driven. The future to Woolie’s past.

Yet even Woolie seemed upbeat. One animator even swore he overheard Woolie saying, “he reminds me a little bit of Walt”.

- ∞ - ​

And with this post, Part I comes to an end. Part II begins shortly.



[1] Jim despised the term “Muppeteer,” considering it kitschy and droll and never used it, preferring “Muppet performer”. The press and others still used the hated term, however.

[2] Absolutely true! Peraza was Emmet Otter and his then classmate and future wife Patty Paulick was MA otter. I’ve yet to determine what Muppet Burton played. Director John Landis (Animal House, Blues Brothers) was also one of the guest Muppet performers in that scene.

Image source "muppet.fandom.com/"

[3] I’ve read numerous accounts from employees of Jim Henson who related similar experiences.

Under Disney, The Dark Crystal could be bigger than it ever was IOTL and it's apparent that everyone is as into the project as Jim is. Imagine it opening with this.

Put those two in place of the Universal opening and it effects the opening is so much better for it. Of course, there's no telling how they would alter Jim's original vision compared to how it was altered IOTL.

 

[myuacc1]

Under Disney, The Dark Crystal could be bigger than it ever was IOTL and it's apparent that everyone is as into the project as Jim is. Imagine it opening with this.

*snip*

Put those two in place of the Universal opening and it effects the opening is so much better for it. Of course, there's no telling how they would alter Jim's original vision compared to how it was altered IOTL.

That would be cool, although that Disney logo is fanmade.

 

[Igeo654]

That would be cool, although that Disney logo is fanmade.

Ah, didn't realize. Maybe something a bit more in the vein of what they did with Tron perhaps?

 

[Geekhis Khan]

This is fascinating if true - and I'm sure it is - and it also explains why the two movies guiltiest of this animation recycling were the first two after Walt died (Aristocats and especially Robin Hood) - both of which were solely directed by Reitherman (he co-directed Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh and The Rescuers in '77).

I forgot to mention earlier but Joe Ranft was one of the unsung heroes at Disney/Pixar (one recent article on Lasseter's indiscretions outright refers to him as his conscience) so it's nice to see him being so prominently featured here.

Congratulations on the completion of an amazing Part I!

Thanks again, BB. Ranft's role at Pixar is pretty famous. He voiced a lot of the early characters and "returned from the dead" as Red the Fire Engine in the Cars sequel after his untimely passing. He and Lasseter will feature in this TL for sure.

As to the reason behind the recycled animation, I got that tidbit from an interview with Floyd Norman (https://geekdad.com/2015/06/disneys-recycled-animation/):

“It's actually harder and takes longer to redraw an existing sequence. It’s a lot faster and easier to just do new animation, and it’s a lot more fun for the animators. But Woolie liked to play it safe and use stuff he knew would work. That’s all it was.” - Floyd Norman.

Under Disney, The Dark Crystal could be bigger than it ever was IOTL and it's apparent that everyone is as into the project as Jim is. Imagine it opening with this.

Put those two in place of the Universal opening and it effects the opening is so much better for it. Of course, there's no telling how they would alter Jim's original vision compared to how it was altered IOTL.

Could be interesting.

 

[Kalvan]

So instead of being overshadowed by E.T., Dark Crystal gets the production values it deserved and the marketing push it needed? Interesting. Does this mean that, when the time comes, Lucas shops Willow over to Disney, or rather, Touchtone or Miramax? Might we be getting the (back)story of Tron: Legacy as a sequel in the late Eighties? How will Labyrinth do?

Will the joint venture with Tokyo Movie Sensha, Little Nemo in Slumberland see completion on schedule with the original partnership intact? Also, if Tim Burton is staying at Disney, doesn't this mean Pee Wee Herman stays an adult satire of kid shows like TV Funhouse and Wonder Showzen rather than become the genuine article? Might we be getting Frankenweenie as a feature film thirty years early?

 

[CountDVB]

Oh this is gonna be really good

 

[Igeo654]

So instead of being overshadowed by E.T., Dark Crystal gets the production values it deserved and the marketing push it needed? Interesting. Does this mean that, when the time comes, Lucas shops Willow over to Disney, or rather, Touchtone or Miramax? Might we be getting the (back)story of Tron: Legacy as a sequel in the late Eighties? How will Labyrinth do?

Touchstone might not even exist ITTL. Disney could, under Jim and Tim's influences, be convinced to go a darker and more risky route with films like The Black Cauldron, a mostly CGI Tron, animated versions of Frankenweenie, Labyrinth, Catfish Bend(?), Where the Wild Things Are(?), The Spirit(?), The Rocketeer(?), Army Ants(?), Edward Scissorhands and who knows what else. Maybe The Gen LeRoy version of Beauty and the Beast? Not to mention all the live-action and stop-motion stuff like Beetlejuice and Nightmare Before Christmas.

 

[GrahamB]

I think the classic blue/white castle opening credit was a couple of years after this (mid 80's?) but I'm already imagining a running gag for Muppet/Henson films under the Disney Brand: the title begins to play and abruptly gets stuck (like the projector's failed or something). Then George or Beauregard (the two janitors from The Muppet Show) comes on screen and gives the picture a good thwack, starting the logos running again.
Later films could get more elaborate, having a character or actor from the movie fix the logo as a sort of early-bird cameo, having the logo break down in amusing ways (like the shooting star bouncing off the castle tower), all the way up to Beauregard having to recreate the logo sequence manually after the whole thing falls off the background.
There will be some people who complain that such liberties were an insult to the dignity of the company, but most people won't hear them over the laughter.

 

[OldNavy1988]

I think the classic blue/white castle opening credit was a couple of years after this (mid 80's?) but I'm already imagining a running gag for Muppet/Henson films under the Disney Brand: the title begins to play and abruptly gets stuck (like the projector's failed or something). Then George or Beauregard (the two janitors from The Muppet Show) comes on screen and gives the picture a good thwack, starting the logos running again.
Later films could get more elaborate, having a character or actor from the movie fix the logo as a sort of early-bird cameo, having the logo break down in amusing ways (like the shooting star bouncing off the castle tower), all the way up to Beauregard having to recreate the logo sequence manually after the whole thing falls off the background.
There will be some people who complain that such liberties were an insult to the dignity of the company, but most people won't hear them over the laughter.

Is this the one you're talking about?

I think Dark Crystal should be the first logo to use this one. Either that or TRON? Or The Muppets Take Manhattan?​