Ehy, why do you think that they have made the joke
? Btw, maybe some of the italian characters like Brigitta or Paperinik (Duck Avenger) can be used in the USA comic or the very famous in Italy Great Parodies can be publishedA Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)
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Ehy, why do you think that they have made the joke
? Btw, maybe some of the italian characters like Brigitta or Paperinik (Duck Avenger) can be used in the USA comic or the very famous in Italy Great Parodies can be publishedPerhaps the Disney partnership could be so beneficial to both companies that Duck Avenger gets made as a comic ITTL, and that instead of Donald Duck becoming a superhero, we have Howard the Duck reimagining himself as a full-on hero to make said TTL comic happen.Ehy, why do you think that they have made the joke
I just thought of that a few seconds ago, and simply wanted to suggest the idea.
If Marvel does get to use Gold Key's IP while still doing the GI Joe stuff for Hasbro they could insert Gold Key's M.A.R.S. Patrol Total War, may as the connection between the original GI Joe toy line and the new toy line with M.A.R.S.' enemy later working with Cobra.
Mighty Samson could be incorporated in Killraven.
Dr. Spektor could become Marvel version of Dr. Occult.
Dagar made as part of Marvel's Hyborian Age.
Tragg and the Sky Gods could be connected to the Celestials.
The Jungle Twins could be foster brothers of T'Challa.
With Star Comics not becoming Marvel licensing imprint the Golden Comics name for that purpose.
Turok operates in the Savage Lands.
Baby Snoots becomes part of Star Comics. Same with Pauline Peril, and The Little Monsters.
Royal Roy could be incorporated into Marvel's Richie Rich.
Mighty Samson could be incorporated in Killraven.
Dr. Spektor could become Marvel version of Dr. Occult.
Dagar made as part of Marvel's Hyborian Age.
Tragg and the Sky Gods could be connected to the Celestials.
The Jungle Twins could be foster brothers of T'Challa.
With Star Comics not becoming Marvel licensing imprint the Golden Comics name for that purpose.
Turok operates in the Savage Lands.
Baby Snoots becomes part of Star Comics. Same with Pauline Peril, and The Little Monsters.
Royal Roy could be incorporated into Marvel's Richie Rich.
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Very interesting information on the comics of the late 80's there @Geekhis Khan
Marvel picking up Gold Key and Harvey will certainly change their fortunes- Shooter in charge of herding those cats at Star and DeFalco as EiC of the superhero books should have some lovely butterflies going forward. I could see Cadence Industries not selling Marvel in 1986 ITTL if the Disney deal and Star Comics go well, or if the Parent still spins off Marvel into Marvel Entertainment Group might give Disney first refusal.
Hopefully we will not see MacAndrews & Forbes & Co and Perelman involved in Marvel here, and therefore no bankruptcy since they do not go on a greed inspired purchase binge.
I do like that Star Comics has the Star Wars kids lines. Presumably Marvel still has the older reader lines?
I hope De Falco will grow Epic Comics and thus offering a creator owned outlet for the artists and preventing the Image walkout.
A stable, less greedy Marvel in the '90's will certainly produce very differant output- stuff like the Clone Saga is unlikely to happen. We probably see Secret Wars, but I don't think the 'crossover diease' will settle in as much. The 'Dark/Iron Age' grim and gritty is probably going to happen as long as the wrong lessons are learned from Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns- unless they get butterflied away....
Marvel picking up Gold Key and Harvey will certainly change their fortunes- Shooter in charge of herding those cats at Star and DeFalco as EiC of the superhero books should have some lovely butterflies going forward. I could see Cadence Industries not selling Marvel in 1986 ITTL if the Disney deal and Star Comics go well, or if the Parent still spins off Marvel into Marvel Entertainment Group might give Disney first refusal.
Hopefully we will not see MacAndrews & Forbes & Co and Perelman involved in Marvel here, and therefore no bankruptcy since they do not go on a greed inspired purchase binge.
I do like that Star Comics has the Star Wars kids lines. Presumably Marvel still has the older reader lines?
I hope De Falco will grow Epic Comics and thus offering a creator owned outlet for the artists and preventing the Image walkout.
A stable, less greedy Marvel in the '90's will certainly produce very differant output- stuff like the Clone Saga is unlikely to happen. We probably see Secret Wars, but I don't think the 'crossover diease' will settle in as much. The 'Dark/Iron Age' grim and gritty is probably going to happen as long as the wrong lessons are learned from Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns- unless they get butterflied away....
I don't known why I didn't catch this when you showed the preview of this update but does Disney own Marvel or is it just a licencing agreement between the two?Disney Comics in the 1980s
Excerpt from Comics! An Illustrated History, by N. J. Shaner[1]
As the 1980s began, Disney was still in their long-running partnership with Gold Key Comics and maintained a small internal unit at WD Studios that created comics for foreign markets, such as Germany’s Mickey Maus, France’s Le Journal de Mickey, and Italy’s Topolino[2]. Gold Key’s parent company, Western Publishing, also had an existing relationship with Jim Henson, having produced Muppets and Sesame Street books through Golden Books, Big Little Books, and other labels. Thus, when Jim Henson’s Muppets and The Dark Crystal joined the Disney family in 1981 it was natural for these groups to follow on with Henson-themed comics in both domestic and foreign markets. Waggle Rock would follow suit in 1983. The Henson comics proved popular, particularly the Disney-drawn Japanese The Dark Crystal comic line, which took the form of a Manga.
(Image source "Pintrest.com")
However, by 1983 Gold Key was facing financial difficulties. Parent Company Western Publishing had been purchased by Mattel in 1979 for $120.8 million in cash and stock, but was in turn sold to New York City real estate investor Richard A. Bernstein in December of 1983 for $75 million and an assumption of $40 million in debt. Bernstein planned to close down the unprofitable Gold Key, leaving Disney without a clear comics distributer. Henson suggested that they could do the comics in house the way that they did for foreign sales, but with so many new animation projects in high gear they lacked the manpower. Simply hiring the former Gold Key employees proved difficult since they were located across the country in New York and few were interested in a cross-country move. Furthermore, with an impending hostile takeover, Disney had larger concerns at the moment. A new partner was needed.
Once the takeover attempt had been beaten back by the White Knight campaign, the question of comics returned. Producer Bernie Brillstein had a suggestion. In 1983 he’d been approached by Stan Lee of Marvel Comics with plans for a TV Pilot based upon the Daredevil comic book series, which had fallen through with ABC. Brillstein had turned him down too. Brillstein cited the poor critical and audience reception of Superman III, the recent cancellation of The Incredible Hulk, and the titanic flop of Disney’s own Condorman as signs that the superhero craze of the 60s and 70s had largely run its course with popular audiences. However, Brillstein mentioned to the Executive Committee that he could still get them in touch with Lee if they wanted to consider a partnership with Marvel Comics. At this point they requested that he do so.
Disney CCO Jim Henson was a stickler for quality in the products he put his name on, and Marvel was, along with DC, considered one of the top brands in the industry. Stan Lee met with the Executive Committee. The outgoing and enthusiastic Lee got along well with all, particularly Jim Henson[3]. Lee had brought with him some quick sketches of various Disney and Henson characters performing various activities. Henson loved the three-dimensional aspects of them all. President Frank Wells was in turn impressed with hearing about Jim Shooter’s track record for cutting costs and meeting deadlines. Furthermore, Marvel had serendipitously just spun up the new Star Comics[4] line, which was aimed at younger readers. Though some at Disney expressed their long-running concerns over Marvel’s satirical Howard the Duck character, who bore a more than passing resemblance to Donald, the deal felt like a natural fit.
(Image source "mycomicsshop.com)
For Lee, the partnership offered not just a chance to expand into new markets, but the opportunity to shuffle around the company management. While Jim Shooter had done an excellent job in whipping the disorganized company into shape with missed deadlines now a thing of the past, his aggressive (some would say dictatorial) management style was starting to scare away some of the top talent. Perhaps, thought Lee, a new team could be spun up at Star? At Lee’s urging, Shooter arranged a deal with Richard Bernstein to acquire Gold Key, which was located “just up the river” at Poughkeepsie, New York. He was able to secure the former Gold Key artists and editors, notably expanding the size of the Star Comics team. Furthermore, the new deal with Disney provided a boon in Marvel’s ongoing attempts to acquire Harvey Comics. A recent deal had fallen through at the last minute due to an internal disagreement by the surviving Harvey brothers, but with Disney’s vote of confidence in the Star line, the reticent brother was willing to go through with the deal, particularly once Shooter made it a cash-and-stock deal, making the Harveys shareholders.
The sudden influx of Harvey, Disney, and Henson product lines, along with new Star Wars lines for younger readers like Ewaaks and Droids, made Star Comics large enough to become a Department in and of itself. Lee and the Marvel board were able to make Shooter Executive Vice President and Editor in Chief of Star Comics[5], a job that brought with it the special new challenge of managing several Disney and non-Disney lines and editors and integrating the former Harvey and Gold Key employees into the Marvel corporate structure. It was a challenge that suited Shooter’s temperament well. The milder Tom DeFalco, meanwhile, took over as Vice President and Editor in Chief for the Marvel label. Both lines would prove exceedingly popular in the 1980s and saw a noteworthy increase in quarterly earnings. These earnings were passed on to employees through Shooter’s royalty program and also on to Disney, validating the partnership.
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Not long after the Disney partnership was formed, Jim Shooter received an interesting lesson at the hands of Jim Henson. While visiting Disney in the spring of 1985, he observed the way that Henson worked with his employees, in particular how Henson would subtly steer people in new directions without telling them what to do or how to do it. Shooter saw the way a simple nod or directed question would get Henson what he wanted while in many cases making the employee think that he’d come up with the idea himself. In particular, Shooter witnessed an interaction between Henson and one of the animators. The animator had been working on a sequence for an episode of Muppet Babies and had apparently gone behind Henson’s back to change a sequence. “Didn’t we agree to have Gonzo burst out from the blocks, not drop down from the ceiling?” Henson asked the artist. “Yea,” said the artist, “But I really wanted to try it the other way. Here, check it out.” The artist flipped through the pencil sketches while Jim looked on. “Hmm…that’ll work,” said Henson with a friendly nod, and they walked on.
Shooter asked Jim about the small insubordination and why he let it slide. Henson relayed a story from back in the mid-1970s as they were preparing a pilot for what would eventually become The Muppet Show. Henson had tasked then Muppet designer Don Sahlin to design and develop the Dr. Teeth Muppet. Instead, the naturally contrarian Sahlin spent most of his time working on a Muppet of his own design intended to pull back its lips in a “shit-eating grin”. “I knew Don was working on the other Muppet,” Henson told Shooter.
“But you had a deadline,” replied Shooter. “Why didn’t you discipline him?”
“Because when you have someone as talented as Don was, God rest his soul, you give him his space. I knew he’d finish Dr. Teeth in time, but the grinning Muppet was important to him, so I pretended not to notice[6]. We lost Don not long afterwards, so I’m glad he got to make his grinning Muppet before he passed.”
“I call people like him ‘Big Guns you can’t aim,’” said Shooter.
Henson grunted. “Even the little guns need a bit of space to breath,” he said. “Forgive the mixed metaphor.”
Jim Shooter claimed in later interviews that he took that lesson to heart. Though Lee hadn’t said anything about it, Shooter was well aware of the fact that some of the most talented Marvel artists had fled to DC because of him. From that point forward Shooter worked to strike a good balance between staying engaged enough to keep the talent on track, but also gave them some more creative space and personal creative freedom. “It helped out a lot,” he said. “The new Harvey and Gold Key guys were just the testing ground I needed for the new style, too. I slowly figured out the gentle art of herding cats, and Jim Henson showed me the way.”
[1] Hat tip to @nick_crenshaw82 for some help on the comics front.
[2] Yes, Cars fans, Guido and Luigi’s Italian uncle is Mickey Mouse! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topolino
[3] Sorry, no Epic Rap Battles here!
[4] Among the Star Comics titles in our timeline: Muppet Babies and Fraggle Rock!
[5] @Ogrebear: as to your “Shooter buys Marvel” suggestion, thanks, but I’d hate to steal Pyro’s thunder.
[6] This anecdote was revealed in an interview with Frank Oz, Bill Barretta, Fran Brill, and Dave Goelz in a promotional for Muppet Guys Talking.
@nick_crenshaw82 Pretty sure it's just a licensing agreement right now, like how Star/Marvel is also doing the Star Wars (and presumably Transformers) titles. I wasn't aware there even was a Fraggle Rock comic, much less that it was published at Marvel.
A good working relationship started right now might lead to a closer partnership (who knows, we might get an actually-quite-decent Fantastic Four movie out of this timeline) or they could go their separate ways as time goes by.
A good working relationship started right now might lead to a closer partnership (who knows, we might get an actually-quite-decent Fantastic Four movie out of this timeline) or they could go their separate ways as time goes by.
Don't worry. Howard would still be his usual self when not being the Duck Avenger. I mean, we have a talking duck that resembles Donald, Darkwing Duck had a good line of comics in our timeline, and the word "Avenger" is literally in the name. Tell me that replacing Donald with Howard in this timeline's rendition of Papernik wouldn't even be a remotely good idea.
I appreciate the shout out.
I recall someone (jokingly, I presume) that we should merge our TLs on my thread, but I like what you're doing too much to impose. I would say that is especially true for many of Marvel's writers in the seventies where Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, and Gerry Conway jumped to DC while Steve Gerber (Howard's creator) went to work in animation. John Byrne had an especially intense hatred of Shooter that he infamously parodied him (and the Starbrand character) in 1987 Legends crossover.
That said, with Shooter having jumped to Star/Gold Key/Harvey, we may have our first major butterfly in the comics industry. I'm guessing that the New Universe imprint doesn't see the light of day as it was Shooter's pet project and I wonder if Cadence will still sell Marvel. Just don't sell to New World Entertainment.
More like the Fantasia seeing how both are more geared for younger audiences.
Yes, it's a liscensing agreement, not a buyout.
Marvel movies from Disney/Fantasia are a possibility, but at the moment Superheroes are considered box office poison.
I appreciate the shout out.
I would say that is especially true for many of Marvel's writers in the seventies where Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, and Gerry Conway jumped to DC while Steve Gerber (Howard's creator) went to work in animation. John Byrne had an especially intense hatred of Shooter that he infamously parodied him (and the Starbrand character) in 1987 Legends crossover.
That said, with Shooter having jumped to Star/Gold Key/Harvey, we may have our first major butterfly in the comics industry. I'm guessing that the New Universe imprint doesn't see the light of day as it was Shooter's pet project and I wonder if Cadence will still sell Marvel. Just don't sell to New World Entertainment.
NP. And as someone who is far from a comics expert I'm open to ideas on what butterflies may form in the comics front.
Yes, I'd say Star is the Walt Disney Productions (G rated kid audiences), Marvel is the Fantasia (G to PG), and Epic is the Hyperion (T to R adult audience).
Howard the Duck
Chapter 10: Ducks in Space
From In the Shadow of the Mouse, Non-Disney Animation 1960-2000, by Joshua Ben Jordan
In 1984 Ralph Bakshi was looking for a project. His Frazetta-inspired fantasy animation feature Fire and Ice had been a financial loss despite its rock-bottom $1.2 million budget and finding a new production was proving a challenge. An animated production of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas had fallen through when Hunter S. Thompson’s ex-girlfriend, to whom Thompson had given the movie rights, refused to work on an animated feature, wanting instead to do a live action version. Similarly, Bakshi’s “passion project”, a production based on Catcher in the Rye, was rejected by J. D. Salinger who refused to see his novel recreated in any form.
Meanwhile, George Lucas was looking for animators. Since 1981 he’d been wanting to do an animated production of the oddball Marvel comic Howard the Duck, a surreal satirical comic featuring a snarky anthropomorphic duck. After participating in the Save Disney campaign, Lucas was now a part owner in the Disney company and approached Animation Vice President Roy Disney about doing an animated production of Howard. Disney, however, was too swamped with other projects and also concerned about possible brand confusion based on Howard’s superficial resemblance to Donald Duck. However, an animator on the Disney staff suggested that if Lucas wanted to do Howard right, he should talk to Ralph Bakshi.
Lucas, along with Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, approached Bakshi about the project. Bakshi was initially disinterested in doing another “adult funny animal” cartoon after Fritz the Cat and Coonskin, but after reading through a few of the Howard the Duck comics he learned to love the strange, noir-tinged acid-trip satire of it all. Production began in 1985 in partnership with Marvel Productions with an initial budget of $5 million. Bakshi brought in a young animator he’d worked with in the past named John Kricfalusi[1]. Bakshi and Kricfalusi found in each other a shared love for animation and the bizarre, and a desire to push the limits of subject matter in animation. Bakshi hired Kricfalusi as his lead animator and they set out to make Howard.
but from the maker of
Consulting with Howard the Duck creator Steve Gerber, Huyck and Katz worked with Bakshi and Kricfalusi to develop a script, a sort of twisted, insane film noir set first on an alien “planet of the ducks” before shifting via interdimensional transport to LA. “The script was an excuse for the insane scenes we produced,” recalls Bakshi. It was all executed using the elastic, Clampett and Avery inspired animation style that has since become associated with Kricfalusi, but with the cynical urban ennui of a Bakshi production. Harvey Keitel was ultimately hired to voice Howard, giving him “a weary, jaded, Bogey-like quality”.
Cost overruns pushed the budget to $11 million. The original cut was rated X by the MPAA, but Lucas pushed to get it down to a “T” if possible. Some of the scenes, including the infamous “duck dick” scene, intended as a satire on the classic “pants-less cartoon duck”, were easy to trim away, while others required redrawing entire scenes. Still, with adult humor, profanity, drug use, and surprisingly graphic violence at times, Howard the Duck barely squeaked by to earn the coveted “T” and avoid the “R”, largely thanks to intense lobbying of the MPAA by Lucas.
Howard the Duck was released in the summer of 1986 by Universal. Reviews were mixed, with Gene Siskel calling it “absurd and profane” and Roger Ebert calling it “a delightfully surreal satire”. The film squeezed out a small profit with a gross of $16 million domestically and another $11 million internationally. Video sales were better, particularly the infamous “uncut” version, and the film quickly became a cult classic, ultimately inspiring an adult animated series in the late 1990s[2].
“We can’t stop here! This is Bat Country!” (Image source “ralphsteadman.com”)
With the relative success of Howard the Duck under their belt, Bakshi-Kricfalusi Productions, or BKP, was born. Fans would soon give it a new name: Bat-Shit Productions. Their first production was, fittingly enough given the fan nickname, a resurrection of Bakshi’s earlier failed bid to produce a Ralph Steadman inspired take on Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
[1] This is true in our timeline as well! In our timeline they got back together to work on the video for the Rolling Stones’ “Harlem Shuffle” cover.
[2] In our timeline Lucas couldn’t get the animated version launched, so he pursued a live-action version with ILM animatronics. It was rushed through production and became an infamous bomb.
From In the Shadow of the Mouse, Non-Disney Animation 1960-2000, by Joshua Ben Jordan
In 1984 Ralph Bakshi was looking for a project. His Frazetta-inspired fantasy animation feature Fire and Ice had been a financial loss despite its rock-bottom $1.2 million budget and finding a new production was proving a challenge. An animated production of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas had fallen through when Hunter S. Thompson’s ex-girlfriend, to whom Thompson had given the movie rights, refused to work on an animated feature, wanting instead to do a live action version. Similarly, Bakshi’s “passion project”, a production based on Catcher in the Rye, was rejected by J. D. Salinger who refused to see his novel recreated in any form.
Meanwhile, George Lucas was looking for animators. Since 1981 he’d been wanting to do an animated production of the oddball Marvel comic Howard the Duck, a surreal satirical comic featuring a snarky anthropomorphic duck. After participating in the Save Disney campaign, Lucas was now a part owner in the Disney company and approached Animation Vice President Roy Disney about doing an animated production of Howard. Disney, however, was too swamped with other projects and also concerned about possible brand confusion based on Howard’s superficial resemblance to Donald Duck. However, an animator on the Disney staff suggested that if Lucas wanted to do Howard right, he should talk to Ralph Bakshi.
Lucas, along with Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, approached Bakshi about the project. Bakshi was initially disinterested in doing another “adult funny animal” cartoon after Fritz the Cat and Coonskin, but after reading through a few of the Howard the Duck comics he learned to love the strange, noir-tinged acid-trip satire of it all. Production began in 1985 in partnership with Marvel Productions with an initial budget of $5 million. Bakshi brought in a young animator he’d worked with in the past named John Kricfalusi[1]. Bakshi and Kricfalusi found in each other a shared love for animation and the bizarre, and a desire to push the limits of subject matter in animation. Bakshi hired Kricfalusi as his lead animator and they set out to make Howard.
Consulting with Howard the Duck creator Steve Gerber, Huyck and Katz worked with Bakshi and Kricfalusi to develop a script, a sort of twisted, insane film noir set first on an alien “planet of the ducks” before shifting via interdimensional transport to LA. “The script was an excuse for the insane scenes we produced,” recalls Bakshi. It was all executed using the elastic, Clampett and Avery inspired animation style that has since become associated with Kricfalusi, but with the cynical urban ennui of a Bakshi production. Harvey Keitel was ultimately hired to voice Howard, giving him “a weary, jaded, Bogey-like quality”.
Cost overruns pushed the budget to $11 million. The original cut was rated X by the MPAA, but Lucas pushed to get it down to a “T” if possible. Some of the scenes, including the infamous “duck dick” scene, intended as a satire on the classic “pants-less cartoon duck”, were easy to trim away, while others required redrawing entire scenes. Still, with adult humor, profanity, drug use, and surprisingly graphic violence at times, Howard the Duck barely squeaked by to earn the coveted “T” and avoid the “R”, largely thanks to intense lobbying of the MPAA by Lucas.
Howard the Duck was released in the summer of 1986 by Universal. Reviews were mixed, with Gene Siskel calling it “absurd and profane” and Roger Ebert calling it “a delightfully surreal satire”. The film squeezed out a small profit with a gross of $16 million domestically and another $11 million internationally. Video sales were better, particularly the infamous “uncut” version, and the film quickly became a cult classic, ultimately inspiring an adult animated series in the late 1990s[2].
“We can’t stop here! This is Bat Country!” (Image source “ralphsteadman.com”)
With the relative success of Howard the Duck under their belt, Bakshi-Kricfalusi Productions, or BKP, was born. Fans would soon give it a new name: Bat-Shit Productions. Their first production was, fittingly enough given the fan nickname, a resurrection of Bakshi’s earlier failed bid to produce a Ralph Steadman inspired take on Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
[1] This is true in our timeline as well! In our timeline they got back together to work on the video for the Rolling Stones’ “Harlem Shuffle” cover.
[2] In our timeline Lucas couldn’t get the animated version launched, so he pursued a live-action version with ILM animatronics. It was rushed through production and became an infamous bomb.
This Howard film sounds more interesting than OTL at least.
Bat-Shit Productions sound interesting, a way to do things that the major animation studios wouldn't touch, but I can't help but think it'll all end badly when some of Kricfalusi's "bad habits" come to light
Bat-Shit Productions sound interesting, a way to do things that the major animation studios wouldn't touch, but I can't help but think it'll all end badly when some of Kricfalusi's "bad habits" come to light
If you ask me, letting Ralph Bakshi and John K. go wild with Howard makes me wonder if the MPAA should have rejected Lucas's begging and pleading, and stuck with an R rating.
As for the animated series, is it essentially this timeline's equivalent to Duckman? If not, then who makes it ITTL?
As for the animated series, is it essentially this timeline's equivalent to Duckman? If not, then who makes it ITTL?
Oh hello Monsiour K. When will things start going rightfully wrong for you?
You will. Their next feature is already announced in the above article.
Sounds about right.
Stay tuned there. And not just Mesr. K. Animation in general has a bad reputation for sexism and mysogyny. In another "few years" expect a lot of shit to go down. Also, it's not like Bakshi comes across much better in his treatment of women. To quote a recent Buzzfeed expose: '[W]hen [Joanna] Romersa was working at the studio of animation pioneer Ralph Bakshi as a secretary and production manager in the ’70s, she “used to think Ralph was mad at me if he didn’t pat my butt or pinch my boob. … Bakshi was a bastard.”' That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Stay tuned on Duckman. That's a ways out and I'm not yet sure where the butterflies will fall.
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