@nick_crenshaw82 The Memory Alpha article for "Orion slave girl" should explain everything.
A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)
- Thread starter Geekhis Khan
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Are you saying that sapient trafficking and prostitution don't exist because that's how I would interpret "Orion slave girls".
It’d still be interesting to have a female Orion character who still has her agency.
Who’s to say that they couldn’t take have an Orion woman in Starfleet?
Yeah, but the Guardians of the Galaxy aren’t exactly an A-list team and you weren’t likely to find non-comics fans who would know who they are.
Having Lucy Lawless pop up as a badass green-skinned woman is a no-brainer!
Unfortunately those exist even in the Star Trek's future. The point that the Federation isn't objecting makes it worse.
Quoting Memory Alpha again:
During the fictitious court martial of Commander Spock for hijacking the USS Enterprise, sexually objectifying stereotypes about Orion women were common enough that the illusory version of Commodore José I. Mendez was made to remark, without objection from other officers, "they're like animals: vicious, seductive. They say no Human male can resist them."
(Emphasis mine)
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PNWKing
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Oddly my casting choice for an Orion woman in Starfleet is not Lucy Lawless, but another Lucy L.: Lucy Liu. The sexual stereotyping of Orion women is similar to that of Asian women and in my mind I just read Jose Mendez's remark replacing "Orion" with "Asian" and "Human" with "white". Obviously, a green-skinned character having subtext that maps to OTL racial issues is a bit strange, but remember this is "Star Trek" and "Star Trek" going back to the original 1966 show as created by Gene W. Roddenberry himself was always full of such subtext. (Witness Bones' teasing of Spock, a Vulcan, as an example.)
1. Yup. I definitely want some badass lizard people kicking the Borg down to whatever cybernetic hell they came from. Hopefully in this alt TNG, if the Gorn are depicted, they aren't like the ones from TOS but more akin to STO, with hulking bodies reminiscent of a humanoid Godzilla. That's a personal preference since that's how I came to view the Gorn.
2. It's not out of the question for an Orion crew member to wind up in Shelby's ship, since Orions are a pretty itinerant species and Lower Decks has an Orion crewmate, but I would also like to see a further exploration of the Orion Syndicate, possibly more so than OTL. With that in mind, I have a counterproposal to have a female Orion character that's a crime lord herself, controlling a huge fleet and a massive illegal operation out in the darkest reaches of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. Comparisons include Ching Shih IRL or Aria T'Loak from Mass Effect. In fact, maybe that could be a focus on the Shelby series ITTL, with the Ferengi and the Orions having a major focus on the show, with them acting as neutral partners or enemies to the ship or the numerous factions in the galaxy.
That's pretty much the Twi'leks in the Star Wars universe - didn't stop Lucasarts from creating Aayla, Mission or Hera.
So it should be possible to have an Orion in Starfleet who isn't a ho. Or they could go with the Aria T'Loak option.
If we're drawing inspiration from the videogames, there's also the 2013 Gorn:
- Funny thing, but I was imagining a Gorn being played by Michael Clark Duncan. Or whoever would be willing to put lizardman makeup on.
- Since people were basically suggesting that Shelby be in charge of the Voyager it'd be fun to have the crew be a hodgepodge of different races even before the Maquis are involved.
Keep in mind that this is 90's television we're talking about here. The design should still be humanoid to make designing the costume easier.
I assume the Gorn would have speaking roles? If we're going with makeup, that also rules out the STO Gorn or anything more complex than a Silurian.
I do prefer the STO version because they seem more humanoid and less monstrous than the Kelvin counterpart. I also agree with HonestAbe that it'd be easier for the costume designers to make more humanoid aliens than ones with disproportionate body shapes.
I mean, that's a step forward for Star Trek. Once characters like Worf, Troi, and Ro were introduced, the possibilities are endless with more diverse crews, like in DS9, Voyager, or even in Titan, which has one of the most diverse crews. I was imagining that Shelby could have Quark and Rom as the bartenders of the ship, since DS9 doesn't exist anymore. There's a whole host of alien species that they can choose from like the Trill, Benzites, Bolians, Bajorans, Klingons, Andorians, Tellaries, Vulcans, Caitians, etc...
You know, I just realized how much of an upgrade Riker has gotten in this TNG compared to OTL. He went from a young and doubting executive officer to saving Earth and becoming Captain, only to save the entire galaxy from the Borg during the war. Dude must be filled with accolades from the Federation at this point as Commodore and he deserves it as a war hero.
I still have some questions/commentaries on this alt TNG and what they could do for the sequel series:
- Does Riker still have his transporter clone? If so, how does Thomas Riker fit into the whole thing? Maybe he could end up being a major character in the sequel series, since William won't be the focus of the show. I'd love to see him as a recurring presence as a Maquis commander against Shelby, bringing to light on the hypocrisies of the Federation, especially when they're just about to abandon both the colonists and the Bajorans to the fascist Cardassians. He could even replace Eddington as the face/leader of the Maquis instead of being an agent, given his natural leadership qualities.
- I just love how the Borg function here in this timeline, since First Contact and Voyager were butterflied away. They're much more terrifying as a pure hive mind than their OTL counterparts. Actually, they're probably even more unsettling than the Reapers, since the Borg's intentions are loud and clear (YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED) from minute one yet they're so powerful and seemingly invincible that you're gonna crap your pants whenever they appear and start destroying entire fleets like it's no problem. The Federation can't negotiate or even reason with them, so all they can do is either defend the Alpha Quadrant from whatever they've got or die trying.
- In a way, I'm okay if the Borg disappear from the main discourse, since having an unknown origin makes them even more terrifying than what they're already are. All people could do is speculate from the little clues that they have, and that's pretty interesting.
- I can't to see what the sequel series has in store with the Mirror Universe. Just saying
Memory Alpha also says the following (at least OTL):
If we decide to use Enterprise material that works perfectly, see above. Also apparently only some of the Orion women have the pheromones that affect heterosexual males:
The version of the Guardians she belonged to didn't even exist until 2008, before than she was even more obscure. She was originally associated with Adam Warlock and belonged to a team called Infinity Watch, whose used to be guardians of the Infinity Gems (along side Dead the Destroyer, Moondragon, Pip the Troll, Adam Warlock, and Thanks in one of his hero periods.)
Say who? Just because a few people have certain stereotypes about Orion slave women isn't indicative of the Federation as a whole. That like saying all white people are racist.
Why does it have to be an Orion female, why not an Orion male?
Only one person, me, has suggested that and @Denliner suggested otherwise.
Jim Henson's Dinosaurs proved that a Gorn could be done by animatronics.
Or Enterprise Horns:
And maybe someday the Edosian.
Probably not but this could give us two Shelby's.
While I can maybe understand First Contact but why would Voyage be butterflied away?
Yeah because that's what the audience want, an enemy with no hope of defeating.
As a Parthian shot before I go to bed I leave you with this:
Well they can go for the supersentai way, a suit actor and a voice actor for the characters, so to have a lot less problem for the casting, so get some big stuntman/bodybuilder and Fred Tatasciore or Frank Walker and....HAIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
For the Orion Syndacate, well i always see them like a Megacorp that's basically a front for the Mafia, each Orion family refer to a corp that's the legal front for a mafia like group
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Because of the aforementioned ability and the reputation that Orion females have in Star Trek at this point, which could be addressed by a moral upright Federation officer or a more assertive pirate queen that uses her abilities to her advantage to gain power. Either one works, imo.
Animatronics are pretty expensive, and we're talking about entire crews filled with Gorn if they take part in the Borg War. Suits are probably more economical for the production crew. Lukedalton's idea makes a lot of sense, and considering how popular Bio-Force is ITTL, there shouldn't be any problems in them integrating that kind of arrangement for less humanoid species until the advent of CGI.
Maybe, since the story could adapted for Shelby, but I would prefer Riker, as the transporter accident and the subsequent changes to the narrative would dramatically alter how he would view Captain Riker, since he's the commanding officer of the Enterprise-D and now has to fight against the Borg. The personality differences would be even more vast, as Thomas is like his S1 self while William is a much more calm and reserved leader. I could also see a huge inferiority complex happen with Thomas since he now has to contend with the fact he got to be one that becomes a war hero and a savior of the Galaxy and not him.
What I'm referring to is the additional Borg lore that was added in Voyager and First Contact. Without stuff like the Borg Queen or their origins, they're just an unknowable synthetic menace on the Galaxy, so they carry a far heavier weight since they have no leader and no government as a hive mind. They're just Legion.
I'd love to see a show that has a similar premise to Voyager though.
Both of these are nightmare fuel, not gonna lie.
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Might be able to get away with animatronics just for the speaking Gorn; the extras only need to stand around and look menacing. Or they could have their windpipes besides their clavicles like Toruk does - then they can talk without using their mouths.
Presuming Shelby does not keep the Enterperise-D (more than likely- gotta sell the merch) then I am sure she will get a new ship. I like the Paralax design I posted, but they might come up with something closer to the Intrepid design (aka USS Voyager) however I think it will depend on what kind of series it is- is Captain Shelby is leading a more exploritory crew or a more aggressive 'battle' crew cleaning up Borg remmemments? Sure UFP ships can do both, but the series empathsis will change the design e.g. Voyager vs Norway for example.
As for the name, I think Borg Veteran Shelby will pick something like Defiant, Resolute, Repulse, Indefatigable, Indomitable or similar.
As for the name, I think Borg Veteran Shelby will pick something like Defiant, Resolute, Repulse, Indefatigable, Indomitable or similar.
I can understand why that could bug you (everyone has their own specific points where suspension of disbelief is strained), though to be clear there was a reason in both OTL and TTL why those came out on the years that they did. Sequels almost inevitably come 2-4 years after the original because that's typically how much time it takes to produce a movie. The bigger the production, the longer it generally takes, so greenlight the sequel the second the first one is a hit, and your clock starts then. I guess I could have moved them a year forward or backwards and I could have just butterflied them entirely, though the latter option seemed unlikely when all made money. GBII took as long as it did in both TLs because you had to wait until the main actors' fame curve dipped a bit so they'd have the time to all be available. BTTF sequels were never originally planned by the Bobs (the "sequel hook" at the end of BTTF was meant as a fun ending rather than an actual sequel hook). They had other things that they wanted to do before the bug bit them again and they chose to make them back-to-back in both TLs. I saw no specific reason to change that. In TTL they take a year longer, actually (BTTF released in late 1984 ITTL). And the fact that two of those films are hugely different than their OTL versions is to me a much more significant change than the year of release. BTTF 2 being "in the future and about Marty's kids" is set by the faux sequel hook, so that's unchanged, and making a western for #3 is a pretty obvious follow-on.
If you want to review my thoughts on butterflies, when I use them, and why, here's the appropriate Meta-post:
A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)
Kingdom Hearts could be interesting in this TL. But it's also very likely that it doesn't exist. It's very vulnerable to butterflies.
www.alternatehistory.com
Among the points I talk about is when not to use butterflies simply to prevent the TL from spiraling into the Fiction Zone too quickly. In other words, there a meaning to the madness.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
I figure Jake could have a schoolboy crush on her, while she's like whatever, kid.
I wasn't planning to go any deeper into individual episodes to be honest (no time), so unless anyone wants to volunteer to guest write a "top ten best episodes" or something then you'll have to use your imagination on a lot of this. But in general there will be a Klingon Succession story arc per OTL with plenty of familiar-ish Klingon recurring characters.
On O'Brien, as a former enlisted man my head canon is to see the Chiefs explored as more than just background characters with a single token representative. Make the Chiefs the secret rulers of the fleet as it is IRL. Fun fact: you're better off pissing off the Captain than you are pissing off the Master Chief. The Captain can only take disciplinary action against you. The Chief, who knows every department head and had his or her fingers into every administrative action, will destroy your life one minute at a time.
Captain Data is an animated edutainment show with a young audience. Data and crew visit planets and use science and math to save the day.
Robin as Q Ultimate: "OK, Robin, you're an omnipotent being able to change reality at a whim. You can go anywhere, any when, change the laws of physics, and make whomever you want appear like magic. Annndd...ACTION!"
Guinan is still there. See the prior entry on TNG. In fact, ITTL she's actually more critical since it was Troi that died rather than Yar (her role iOTL was frankly rather redundant with Troi's). The footnote was more that you didn't need Guinan for exposition like you did in the OTL version since Troi could answer her own questions in that way.
In a TL about Jim Henson at Disney?You can't stop with the puns, can you?
Always avoid any and all asinine alliteration, aye?
Commodore is a Star Fleet rank sort of equivalent to the US Rear Admiral, Lower Half. During the War he had a flotilla that he commanded. When the war ended he retained his rank since the Enterprise-D is the official Flagship and he can call upon additional ships when needed, though for most of Season 8 he's cleaning up after the war rather than commanding a fleet (though he will have to call them up to stare down Romulan, Klingon, or Cardassian power plays on occasion).
Commodore
Commodore was the lowest flag officer rank, above captain but below rear admiral. A Starfleet insignia denoting the rank of commodore was used on the Starfleet uniforms of the 2140s-early 2160s. (ENT: "First Flight", "Shockwave, Part II") In 2364, several commodores issued commands in mission...
memory-alpha.fandom.com
Of course. Classic. One of the few times when "it was all a dream" was used well. Google the Breaking Bad take on that one. Awesome.
Bernie Brillstein was Dan Ackroyd's manager in both TLs. IOTL he played a critical role in getting it greenlit at Columbia. ITTL, well, he was at Disney...
I agree fully, but honestly that's Trekker thinking rather than Paramount Exec thinking. The Ferengi are chosen by Berman for three reasons: 1) they are known and established and beloved with the casual TNG fandom; 2) outside of hardcore fandom the Gorn (as much as I love them personally) were a campy one-hit wonder and you'd need to reintroduce the Gorn and explain why nobody has talked about them for five seasons; and most importantly 3) the Ferengi setting aside their individual profits and instead uniting to endanger themselves in a massive war with no hope of making a buck off of the deal should tell everyone just what's at stake here, as well as fitting into the greater hopeful themes of Trek.
The Ferengi will, ironically, be the glue that holds the Alliance together despite all the mutual distrust, using their cunning and persuasiveness to keep the others united against the common foe.
Quark and his kin are introduced as recurring Ferengi characters in Seasons5-8, BTW.
In general, Paramount could probably reintroduce the Gorn, but the CGFX aren't yet there in 1992/3 even in this TL so you'd need a big rubber suit with an animatronic head, which is pretty expensive. They'd need to hire someone like the Creatureworks or try to spin up their own in-house division. A "crew" of Gorn would get very expensive very quickly. Ferengi are simple rubber forehead aliens. So we could see the Gorn as a one-shot kind of thing, maybe a single recurring character, but the entire fleet as a central part of the alliance is probably a non-starter as a central part of the story in 1992-3.
I love the Andorians and Orions too (one of the best things about ENT was reintroducing them) but Amazing Technicolor People are frankly a non-starter in the early 1990s. Too "old fashioned" and campy for most audiences. Even a lot of Trekkers were embarrassed by them at the time. There's a reason even the films push them into the background. The audience (outside of the hardcore fandom) wasn't ready for them again yet.
Once you're the Skipper it's a lot harder to date the crew (you frankly shouldn't as XO either, but that's Hollywood for you). I figure he'll have plenty of "girls of the week" and can still flirt with Beverly and Ensign Ro with plenty of UST to go around. Perhaps there a subplot where he has to set aside his philandering ways and "grow up" to assume command.
Huh, didn't know video games as we know it happened earlier.
Hurts? Yeah, Star Wars does hurt a lot.
Meanwhile, I do think no DS9 means no realising that the TOS-era Klngons look very different then the 80's/90's era ones, in turn leading to the (IMO) very contrieved Augmentation Virus in ENT. Hopefully that is butterflied away, and perhaps they go with the idea of subspecies/morphs becoming more prominent like in Debt of Honor.
Well, they did eventually...
For a few minutes in Trek 2009, during much of which screen time she was in her underwear. Though to be fair, the IDW comics brought the character back and gave her a lot more agency and general awesomeness.
I agree. You could have there be a major Orion diaspora in the Federation, and that the UFP's been quietly letting Orions who want out of the way the Syndicate works slip across the border no questions asked (along with having anti-slavery patrols be a major thing Starfleet does). And Lucy Lawless' character is an Orion woman who was raised in the Federation, so joined Starfleet.
I will write a in TL review of the best TNG episodes for you Boss.
O'Brien jumped about in rank in early TNG before he became enlisted, I wonder if there is an episode in that change? Perhaps an early PTSD one that makes Miles drop from the ranks?
I think there should be more than one 'Lower Decks' episode too with O'Brien and the no-ranks and the Chief making someone's life hell...
I bet
There is a lot in this Timeline I'd like a D-Viewer for but Robin Williams as Q would be very, very high on that list. Hoping, really hoping Williams is able to deal with his demons and live longer ITTL.
Forgot about Guinan taking the (un?)offical councillor role. I suspect there are still other 'offical' therepists on-board for Starfleet reasons, but Guinan is first choice.
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Figuring how the show is leaning towards the Federation struggling with its hardliner/warlike elements in the aftermath of the Borg War and with Shelby's commanding personality, I thought it would be a logical decision that Shelby will request to command a ship like the Norway or even the Akira instead of an exploratory vessel, since those are probably in low demand right now. Wolf 359 cracked the visage of a utopian exploratory Federation, exemplified with the Enterprise-D housing families for the journey, only for the Borg War to completely shatter it (it's why I wanted the conversion to the Galaxy-X Dreadnought to signify this change for audiences, not to mention the dakka dakka potential).
In fact, now that I mentioned the families, I wonder if there's an episode where the D has to evacuate all of the families during the Borg War, just to add even more of the drama and the huge tonal shift from the initial seasons.
Aside from those reasons, I just think it's a nice change of pace and could promote a series where the show has to look inwards towards the Federation and the rest of the galactic community, something that was pretty piecemeal in both TOS and TNG in favor of unknown planets and species. Still, I think she will eventually try to fight against the growing aggression of the Federation, coming to terms with her own abrasive personality in the past, and fully commit to the ideals of the UFP against all odds.
I'd love to see where Geekhis will take this narrative, though.
Great names for the ship, BTW. I also had some names on the top of my head besides Vanguard like Sentinel or Paladin to hint the possible purpose of the show (Defend the Federation, both from its enemies and from itself), but yeah.
Alright, I get where you're getting at with adding the Ferengi into the Quintuple Alliance. I could definitely see some Trekkies raising their eyebrows on why the Ferengi would be one of the primary powers against the Borg when there were other species, but most will probably buy into it, especially TNG fans that would redeem the Ferengi as more than idiot villains.
YES! But where are they located though? On a space station (like Terok Nor?) or on the Enterprise-D?
I'd like to see a Captain that's a Gorn, since I figure there could be some minor allies in the Quintuple Alliance like the Gorn or the Orion if the Ferengi are the fifth major power. It's just that for a Borg invasion on the Alpha Quadrant, there's gotta be more participation from the denizens of that piece of the galaxy, you know?
That is a shame, but you did say that ENT was a factor in reintroducing them. If we got some aliens like the Orions or the Andorians in more serious roles in TNG, it could open the way for greater alien representation in the sequel.
Must be a sad life where Riker still flirts and engages with some of the crew, but his position and growing responsibilities probably prevent from even developing a serious relationship like what OTL Riker had with Deanna Troi. I don't know what would even happen in the far future once Riker becomes Admiral or retires. Would he actually grow old...alone? That'd be a terrifying thought for OTL Riker if he ever met his alternate counterpart.
Ugh, now this makes me want The Inner Light happen to Riker even more, since his struggles with his relationships would be confronted at a more visceral level compared to Picard and he'd fulfill at least a life where he gets a happy spouse with kids for the series.
Regardless of what happens on Riker's relationships (I'm still interested in the scenario where The Outpost happens and causes him to gain a more nuanced view on his sexuality, with him possibly accepting relationships with some men if Soren was male), I wish him the best, because he really needs it. Poor Riker.
@Geekhis Khan , do you approve of that Galaxy-X upgrade idea or does the Enterprise-D remain the same?
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