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It's also worth saying that this isn't the modern day- the BBC can't afford a show that's a flop at home and a hit in America.

Doctor Who is built to be a crowd-pleaser. It was already failing at that in the late eighties; but that cannot be rescued with American audiences. This isn't like sending limited series like I, Claudius to PBS. If you're going to run it in America, you need air time- and what network is going to schedule a fourteen episode low-budget foreign sci-fi series in prime time? Where's it going on the schedule? How is it building an audience?

The BBC simply can't make enough episodes to keep up with a contemporary American TV schedule. If they could, they wouldn't need to, because the show would already be financially viable enough that you don't take the swerve to Kid Doctor Yank. I mean, I can maybe picture them somehow getting a second season on a 'throw good money after bad' basis, but I don't see how they get to a third.

The BBC in the present day can make and market shows with the American audience in mind, because they have their own local network, a different funding model, different television technology and a different type of audience. In 1989 that was not possible, and it certainly wasn't going to happen with a flagship brand.
 
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Star Trek V: The Ultimate Ego
Finding Faith and Fraud with Star Trek V (1989)
From Trektronic Netsite, November 14th, 1997[1]


Love it. Hate it. It’s Trek either way.

1989’s Star Trek V: The Final Frontier has its share of controversy. Its canonicity has been questioned by some, its foray into religious beliefs and the perils of mass evangelism remain controversial, and its “smiling Spock” is seen as blasphemous by the more hard-core pro-Vulcan fandom, even despite the context.

Star_Trek_V_The_Final_Frontier.png

Not exactly this…

Star Trek V was the product of a long and winding road whose origins begin all the way back in the original run of the TV Series. You see, Bill Shatner and Leonard Nimoy knew that the two of them ruled Trek. As such, they made a handshake deal that whatever the one of them got in pay or compensation, the other would get as well. They compared it to the “most favored nations” arrangements in diplomacy. So, when Nimoy scored director’s credits on Star Treks III and IV, he invoked the ancient charter to recommend that Shatner take up the director’s chair, a challenge Shatner jumped on with both feet[2].

This, of course, got old Bill to thinking. What should the movie be about? Well, this was the Golden Age of Televangelists, those charismatic TV preachers who manage to convince folks that the construction of the highway to heaven requires that the funding go through them! “They [the televangelists] were repulsive, strangely horrifying, and yet I became absolutely fascinated,” Shatner recalled. To Shatner, they were gloriously effective con men able to convince others that God spoke through them, and in doing so became fabulously wealthy through the “donations” from their congregation. Thus, the main antagonist Zar, later Sybok, was born, a galactic televangelist.

Originally, Shatner planned to have Zar/Sybok convince the Enterprise crew save Kirk to follow him to a hidden realm where “God” awaited, only it wasn’t God, but Satan. While early in pre-production at Paramount he showed his ideas to his friend/rival Eddie Murphy, who liked the idea, and suggested he run it by Gene Roddenberry and get his thoughts. Roddenberry liked the “televangelist” angle, but he warned Shatner to “drop the God angle” since he’d pitched a similar idea on what became Star Trek: The Motion[less] Picture and had been soundly rejected. “Go for some new sort of cult where they see Kirk or Spock as the messiah, or something,” said Roddenberry.

Immediately Shatner loved the idea, decided that Kirk should be the messianic figure, and asked Murphy if he’d play Sybok, the sleazy evangelist cult leader. Murphy laughed and said, “Ah, hell no,” and suggested that Spock should be the false messiah. “Man, he died in Wrath of Khan giving his life for everyone and came back to life in Search for Spock[3]. Think about it, Bill!”

Or so I’d assume, I have no idea how the actual conversation went.

Anyway, now the film treatment evolved into the story of a group of cultists kidnapping Spock as their messiah. Shatner wanted novelist Eric Van Lustbader to write the script, but Lustbader’s requested $1 million pay was a non-starter. Roddenberry suggested that they hand it to veteran Trek scribe D.C. Fontana, who was penning scripts for The Next Generation at the time. She’d never done a feature length script, but she took a swing at it, delivering a workable screenplay about a group of Vulcans and Romulans led by the charismatic Sybok, who learns of Spock’s “resurrection” and declares him the mythical “Showa Ka’al”, a messianic figure from ancient scripts who was prophesized would unite the universe.

In her script, while Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are vacationing at Yosemite (a plot point retained from the original Shatner treatment), Spock is kidnapped and a Federation starship USS Mayflower is stolen by the cultists, many of whom are Star Fleet members. Kirk and the rest of the Enterprise crew reunite to chase down the Mayflower, which witnesses say contains the kidnapped Spock, and they chase them to the Klingon Neutral Zone, and a hidden planet therein, for the final showdown. Paramount thought the screenplay too weak and too “TV like”, so after some script doctoring by various studio writers, with an interruption due to the ’88 writer’s strike, we ultimately got the three-act structure of the final film. The Klingons were replaced by Romulans (who were returning to popularity following their appearance as the main antagonists in The Next Generation) and the “cult” was now a Vulcan/Romulan one intending to peacefully reunite Vulcan and Romulus.

dejry22-a90c522e-65b8-4145-b8a1-a4312ad25614.jpg

Image source Gazomg Trek Art

The film starts the same way as the earlier script in Yosemite, only this time the crew has no idea what happened to Spock (he just disappears!), and now Spock is rumored to have stolen the Mayflower himself! Kirk and the crew are appointed by Admiral Synor (Eddie Murphy as a Vulcan!) to pursue the Mayflower in the new USS Enterprise-A and recapture it peacefully, if possible, but that he must “destroy the Mayflower” if necessary. The Mayflower is heading towards the Romulan Neutral Zone and there is a real fear that the “rogue Federation officers” are planning to start a war. Thus, the Enterprise pursues the Mayflower, hoping to capture it and not have to destroy it, with Saavik (Kirstie Alley) returning to fill in as Science Officer for Spock.

It then jumps to the Mayflower where Spock is on the bridge talking to Sybok (Christopher Plummer, who’d played a similar role in Dragnet a couple of years earlier), who is this smiling, charismatic, and totally sleazy Vulcan/Romulan hybrid. Here we learn about the cult and their assumption of Spock’s divinity based on his “resurrection”. Sybok is trying to use logic to convince Spock of the righteousness and holiness of his cause, and it’s obvious that the ragtag “crew” of the Mayflower is totally under his spell. We learn that Sybok, following his “problematic” (to quote Spock) interpretation of ancient scrolls, believes that this one planet in the neutral zone, Aeris (the name a cross between Ares and Eris), which sits in a direct line between Vulcan and Romulus, is the “holy mount” of the scrolls and the place where if Spock, as the Showa Ka’al, stands during the rising of the three suns, the “minds of all of the children of Ka’al” (Vulcans and Romulans) will “be as one” as though in a great galactic mind meld.

“In time, Showa Ka’al, you will come to understand your divinity,” he finally tells Spock.

Back on the Enterprise, Kirk and Bones debate whether they should follow Synor’s “logical” order that the Mayflower be destroyed before it can breach the neutral zone and risk war. After Bones leaves, Kirk records a long (and some say boring and pointless) Captain’s Log as he debates the ethics of the situation. He returns to the bridge just as Sybok broadcasts to all subspace receivers that he has come with a “message to all”, promising that the “universal melding of the minds of Ka’al” is at hand and calls for “all of the children of Ka’al to join him” at Aeris.

And then, the shocker of shockers, Spock himself, openly smiling and glassy-eyed, proclaims himself the Showa Ka’al who has “died and returned to life on Genesis” and repeats Sybok’s invitation. Uhura soon reports that “large numbers” of ships from Vulcan and Romulus are heading towards Aeris and the neutral zone. An inbound message from Synor declares that the Romulan Star Command is at high alert and he repeats the need to destroy the Mayflower before it breaches the Neutral Zone.

As the Enterprise speeds towards the Mayflower, hiding in the Neutral Zone in a cloaked ship is Romulan Commander D’acia (Rene Auberjonois), who watches the Spock declaration. He then receives orders from the Romulan High Command to go to Aeris and assassinate Spock, thereby ending the cult and killing a powerful enemy all in one fell swoop. He must not start a war with the Federation, however.

The Enterprise reaches the Mayflower just as it is about to cross into the Neutral Zone. Kirk goes into a long monolog to his crew as he debates whether to follow the orders or not. Saavik suggests that they “logically” need to destroy the ship in order to prevent a wider war, citing the “needs of the many” while Bones excoriates Kirk for even considering “murdering his friend in cold blood”. Finally, Kirk lets the ship pass on, unable to follow through on his orders.

They follow the ship to Aeris, where they are confronted by three Romulan Birds of Prey. Commander D’acia orders the Enterprise to leave the Neutral Zone, but Kirk refuses and promises to capture and remove the “pilgrims” peacefully and leave for Federation Space. D’acia gives Kirk “six hours”, but once the transmission ends, he dispatches a team of assassins to the surface of Aeris to “kill Spock the minute he ascends the hill”.

Kirk, Chekov, Bones, Uhura, and Saavik beam down with three Red Shirts to the surface while Sulu takes the bridge and Scotty stands by to beam up the away team when the time comes. Spock, Sybok, and the pilgrims beam down as well, and Sybok begins the ceremony, dressing Spock in elaborate robes. While the Romulans line up behind some crazy crystal-like rocks, Kirk and the crew confront Sybok. The Pilgrims go to confront them, but Spock holds up his hands and walks, smiling, to Jim. Chekov, meanwhile, notices the Romulans and leads the Red Shirts to confront them.

Meanwhile back on the Enterprise, Sulu receives notice that Star Fleet and Romulan vessels have started to amass along the Neutral Zone and that the Klingon fleet has been activated as well.

Back on Aeris, Spock talks to Jim as Sybok watches, assuring him that he’s “seen the truth”. He then gives Kirk a big hug…and surreptitiously palms Kirk’s communicator. As Spock ascends the hill, the Romulans take aim and are about to kill Spock when Chekov and the Red Shirts engage them. The Federation officers and Romulans fight it out as Spock, smiling, ascends the hill as the three suns rise and begins giving a great culminating speech, but then changes gear mid-speech, and tells everyone that they have been hoodwinked, that he is not the Showa Ka’al, and that Sybok has deluded them. When the suns alight behind him, the struggling Romulan fighting Chekov overpowers him and gets a clear shot on Spock. But the shot just misses after Spock withdraws the communicator he took from Kirk and has Scotty beam him up.

When nothing happened with Spock atop the hill as the three suns aligned, Sybok’s delusions are made manifest. After Spock beams away, Saavik and Uhuru talk to the Pilgrims, helping convince them to beam up and leave. Kirk has a long, heartfelt talk to the devastated Sybok and they all beam up together. The Enterprise and Mayflower return to Federation Space and D’acia’s ships cloak and fly away.

Later, on the bridge, Spock admits to have pretended to go along with Sybok, who was deluded and dangerous. “It was the only logical approach”. Admiral Synor admonishes Kirk for his “sentimentality”, but expresses his gratitude that the situation was peacefully resolved. The crew flies back towards Earth as Kirk gives a final Log Entry and the movie ends.

Star Trek V did very well at the box office, earning nearly $70 million against its $36 million budget. Honestly any Trek film that wasn’t complete trash would have done about as well. The film did garner controversy, though. Televangelists caught on that they were the butt of the joke and decried the film as a “screed against people of faith”. The Church of Scientology for some reason (religion plus sci-fi?) assumed that they were the target of Shatner’s vision (they weren’t as best as I can tell) and launched a lawsuit that got thrown out of court.

It was controversial with some fans as well, with “smiling Spock” seen as sacrilege despite the fact that he was clearly faking it and playing along with Sybok, a logical deception given his choices. Many were upset that after the trailers and the film teased a massive three-way battle with the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, the standoff ended peacefully, which felt like a betrayal of a promise. Some fans just couldn’t accept Eddie Murphy as a Vulcan and felt that he should have stuck with being a “whale nerd” while others defended Murphy’s performance and thought that he deserved a bigger role, feeling that he was “screwed by Shatner” in revenge for upstaging him in the earlier film (both Murphy and Shatner deny this, Murphy pointing to his busy schedule as necessitating the smaller role). Many despised the way Shatner’s Kirk took over the screen, in particular hating the many monologs[4], and felt that the rest of the crew got marginalized. The fan name “Star Trek V: The Ultimate Ego” has circulated the Cons. This film is generally seen as the final proof of the then-burgeoning “Even-Odd Rule” in Trek films.

But others appreciated its more cerebral and philosophical take on the Trek-verse, which was seen as more in keeping with the original series compared to the action-heavy or comedy-heavy Treks II-IV. Some liked how they solved the crisis through words, not fists. Roddenberry admitted to it being one of his favorites.

And yet in hindsight, the biggest thing that you can say about Trek V is that there’s not much to say about it. Despite the Fan Hate for Shatner’s direction, the cast and crew said that he was kind to them and helped shield them from the Paramount execs[5] with even George Takei (who maintains a…complicated relationship with Shatner) defending him as a director. Despite the monologs and “boring cerebral stuff” about faith and religion, the film is, like The Search for Spock, mostly just “meh” in many opinions. Almost nobody calls it their favorite Trek film, but few will call it their least favorite. Most can admit that Rene Auberjonois as the calculating Commander D’acia was a delight, and that he needed more screen time.

But whatever your personal take on the film, it remains an interesting installment in the franchise. A film that explores weighty issues in a uniquely Star Trek way. Less action-heavy than others, less comedic than its predecessor, it still “feels” like a Trek movie, and in the end that’s all that one can ask.



[1] Imagine this in a long, scrolling 1990s basic HTML format, eye-bleeding silver comic sans over a background of stars, interrupted by occasional banner ads or little thumbnail cartoon images of the Enterprise, all loading slowly through your 2.28K modem, like the Gods of the Internet intended. Annoying “beepatronic” background music optional.

[2] Sorry, all, I know a lot of you wanted to butterfly Shatner’s directorial debut, but honestly, I’d be hard pressed to do so without also butterflying Nimoy’s movies. Besides, the idea of trying to think like Shatner in the director’s chair has a sick appeal to me as a hack writer.

[3] Idea stolen fair and square from SFDebris relayed courtesy of @theg*ddam*hoi2fan and @Ogrebear.

[4] Needless to say, “Fan Cuts” have propagated around the internet that remove or cut back the monologs.

[5] True in our timeline too, apparently.
 
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Star Trek V: The Final Frontier? Well this should be a fun read!

Eddie Murphy and Gene being the ones to prevent the OTL God Plot? Awesome!
Eddie Murphy as a Vulcan? Well that will get the racist fans in flames - see reaction to Tuvok- glad you did it though.
Hopefully the Mayflower is a Franz Joesph design ship. Man was done dirty by Gene, but he is out of those decisions by this point.
A reunite Vulcan and Romulus plot def works better than Klingon again imho.
Hooray for Saavik's return. Kirstie Alley did play her well.
Sybok by Christopher Plummer = epic ham. Telepathically overpowering the crew?
Aeris position reminds of me of the Triangle from the FASA RPG, but I suspect it is a direct line between Vulcan and Romulus on a chart.
Commander D’acia by Rene Auberjonois - I just cannot see Rene in pointy ears, but I bet he could make it work. TNG Romulan ridges or not?
"Commander D’acia orders the Enterprise to leave the Neutral Zone," hang on mate, aren't you there illegally as well?
Cool that Chekov gets an action sequence. Hope he does not lose all his red shirts!
Any famous cameo's from Trek fans, celebs or not please?
Poor Sybok, hope he gets some medical attention.
Do Enterprise crew take over the Mayflower? Perhaps a sequence where Sulu takes command of it to fly home?
Spock faking it is very cool. The smile bit would have been pure ham for Nimoy to play.
You have Chekov and Uhura spelt wrong in a couple of places btw.
$70 million against its $36 million budget- that is not bad. Throw in some merch and a 6th movie is on the way. if only OTL was a kind to us.
"Roddenberry admitted to it being one of his favorites". - 100% change to OTL!

Sounds like a decent 'middle of the road' Trek film to me. ITTL me would have liked it I suspect. Better than III I think he'd say.

Very nice remake of V there @Geekhis Khan - looking forward to more Trek and everything else from you please.
 
OK, this is my ABSOLUTE LAST Dr. Who post, at least for a while, possibly ever. Honestly the amount of mental, temporal, and emotional investment I've put into this is distracting me from the rest of the TL, all for a franchise that, while I have loved it since I was a kid, I hadn't planned on spending much time on it. A couple of other Turtledove winning writers actually warned me in PM months ago not to get involved in Dr. Who for precisely this reason.

The consensus appears to be "save but hiatus", which for this timeline effectively means "Kill" because by the time I reach the OTL reboot period this TL will have moved far beyond OTL and you could at best expect a single post or perhaps a brief mention. I had an idea for a 9th Doctor in 1993 featuring a now big UK name but it appears there's no desire here to see it, so I'll probably just let Who fade away.

My views on it, @Geekhis Khan, are save, but with hiatus.

Here's what I think should happen:

The first few episodes of Harris' run are hated - combined with Mayall's character leaving in the first few episodes and being replaced with this chick who's basically an annoying stereotype. The accusation of "kiddy" writing, the overacting from Harris' Doctor, the lack of classic monsters (not helped when somebody involved makes a comment about old fans basically not liking the series because it didn't have "racist garbage cans" - a derogatory reference to the Daleks) and (perceived) America-pandering turn many British fans - and quite a few of the pre-Harris American fans off.

However, as it continues, the writing becomes less "kiddy" (maybe the showrunner changes), the America-pandering becomes less blatant and Harris' natural charm (which you can see in pretty much everything he does) is allowed to shine through. Possibly, an arc starts to run through the whole series after, say, the fourth episode... all culminating in the first series finale - where we come to the conclusion of the arc (whatever it is) and things start to get dark for Harris' Doctor, enabling him to put his talents to use, and revealing he has a very good dramatic range. All this and the return of a classic monster... a Dalek, which is portrayed as something utterly horrifying.

The second and third series of Harris' run are significantly better received by the fans and seem intent on correcting the mistakes that the initial series had - there are more classic monsters, the tone is darker and Harris is allowed to show off his acting talents a bit more. However, as fans (both British and American) are coming back and starting to say "OK, I want to see more of this", the ratings drop, because the general audience is moving on - this means that any plans for a Ninth Doctor are dropped. Personally, I think Harris' run should end on a cliffhanger, maybe with him regenerating on the TARDIS... to a conclusion we'll never see.

Then, for the next decade or so, the consensus among fans that Harris was trying his best, but he was constrained by a bunch of different factors and not really allowed to reach his full potential. The rights eventually revert to the BBC and there's talk about doing a revival of the series - maybe in time for the 40th anniversary.

And we end up with something roughly similar to RTD's revival in 2004/2005.
@Nathanoraptor that's actually not what was happening here. The 8th Doctor's run is "childlike" not "childish", though some fans will loudly assume the latter without ever watching the show. In keeping with the Troughton and Pertwee years they are embracing the camp, but in keeping with the Hartnell and Troughton years it has deep plots and subject matter (Ganz Cooney was big on educational programming). "The Aztecs" features human sacrifice and it was "meant for kids". The NPH years were more like that, not abandoning the Daleks or Cybermen or any of the philosophical drama, but looking for a multilayered show that families can watch together. The "Coming of age" jokes will appeal to adults as well as teens, for example. K-9 will have kid appeal, but this won't go a "K-9 and the Doctor" none the less "Who MD". The makers of this still have pride in their work and are trying their best to make shows befitting the franchise even as the "regrettable" casting causes uproar.

It's also worth saying that this isn't the modern day- the BBC can't afford a show that's a flop at home and a hit in America.

Doctor Who is built to be a crowd-pleaser. It was already failing at that in the late eighties; but that cannot be rescued with American audiences. This isn't like sending limited series like I, Claudius to PBS. If you're going to run it in America, you need air time- and what network is going to schedule a fourteen episode low-budget foreign sci-fi series in prime time? Where's it going on the schedule? How is it building an audience?

The BBC simply can't make enough episodes to keep up with a contemporary American TV schedule. If they could, they wouldn't need to, because the show would already be financially viable enough that you don't take the swerve to Kid Doctor Yank. I mean, I can maybe picture them somehow getting a second season on a 'throw good money after bad' basis, but I don't see how they get to a third.

The BBC in the present day can make and market shows with the American audience in mind, because they have their own local network, a different funding model, different television technology and a different type of audience. In 1989 that was not possible, and it certainly wasn't going to happen with a flagship brand.
I know that this wasn't your intention here, SenatorChickpea, but this is actually quite insulting to me as a creator. You assume that I have not done any research here, that I'm making stuff up as I go along, and that I've not thought these things through. To the contrary, I have spent hours researching and thinking through options and consequences for every major decision that I make in this TL. I've got a hundred balls in the air, but I do try to give each one its fair share of my attention and effort, particularly on something as beloved as Who, Trek, or Star Wars. My biggest error was perhaps underestimating the level of fan hate and ethnic elitism, which I already had dialed to extremely high, figuring that it was hard to have a bigger fandom backlash than OTL Star Wars Episode I or The Last Jedi.

FWIW the answer to a lot of your questions was actually in the last post (the 6th and 7th Doctors):

The young Yanks, it seemed, liked the silliness and camp of it all and PBS stations moved the show to a Sunday Afternoon slot, where the Age 8-12 Nielsen Ratings started to increase.

So you're absolutely right that a major Network isn't taking this up, but that was never the plan. PBS took it up and moved it from the 9-10 PM "death slot" to a good after church/Sunday brunch "family hour" on the weekends where competition and expectations were low. Classic syndicated episodes play between "new" episodes. This will likely see a "paltry" Nielsen share of around 8-11, depending on the episode, so a "mere" 7-12 Million viewers (I can't find exact Nielsen numbers for 1990), or on par with Dr. Who at its twin peaks under Tom Baker and Tennant, and this is from the US alone (at over 100 million households even a small share is a huge number). Assuming an unheard of 90% drop in UK viewership (an extreme and unprecedented drop) there will still be about half a million UK viewers (folks like OgreBear, it seems). The BBC could even pull the show from the UK entirely as some have mentioned and still be as profitable as it ever was. The money is coming from the US here, and far more of it than the BBC ever allotted in the Classic Era thanks to corporate sponsorships.

Honestly, the biggest threat to ever seeing a 9th Doctor is the massive UK fan blowback causing the BBC to kill it for being "not worth the angry mail". That appears to be a very likely scenario and is the direction I am currently leaning. Whether it ever gets rebooted, well, that's decades away from the right now and I'll worry about that some other day.
 
I don't even like Star Trek, but I'd watch that.
Honestly teen ager me will have hate it but thirty something me will have loved it
@Geekhis Khan - that sounds a fairly good movie! But at the same time, you’ve kept it nice and plausible by having it be flawed. Nice work :D
Thanks all. STV wasn't a bad concept, it was just a bad execution.

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier? Well this should be a fun read!

Eddie Murphy and Gene being the ones to prevent the OTL God Plot? Awesome!
Eddie Murphy as a Vulcan? Well that will get the racist fans in flames - see reaction to Tuvok- glad you did it though.
Hopefully the Mayflower is a Franz Joesph design ship. Man was done dirty by Gene, but he is out of those decisions by this point.
A reunite Vulcan and Romulus plot def works better than Klingon again imho.
Hooray for Saavik's return. Kirstie Alley did play her well.
Sybok by Christopher Plummer = epic ham. Telepathically overpowering the crew?
Aeris position reminds of me of the Triangle from the FASA RPG, but I suspect it is a direct line between Vulcan and Romulus on a chart.
Commander D’acia by Rene Auberjonois - I just cannot see Rene in pointy ears, but I bet he could make it work. TNG Romulan ridges or not?
"Commander D’acia orders the Enterprise to leave the Neutral Zone," hang on mate, aren't you there illegally as well?
Cool that Chekov gets an action sequence. Hope he does not lose all his red shirts!
Any famous cameo's from Trek fans, celebs or not please?
Poor Sybok, hope he gets some medical attention.
Do Enterprise crew take over the Mayflower? Perhaps a sequence where Sulu takes command of it to fly home?
Spock faking it is very cool. The smile bit would have been pure ham for Nimoy to play.
You have Chekov and Uhura spelt wrong in a couple of places btw.
$70 million against its $36 million budget- that is not bad. Throw in some merch and a 6th movie is on the way. if only OTL was a kind to us.
"Roddenberry admitted to it being one of his favorites". - 100% change to OTL!

Sounds like a decent 'middle of the road' Trek film to me. ITTL me would have liked it I suspect. Better than III I think he'd say.

Very nice remake of V there @Geekhis Khan - looking forward to more Trek and everything else from you please.
Changes made, thanks! Spell check seems to autocorrect to Uhuru, since that's a word.

Nimoy had the time of his life.

spock-amok-time.png


Celeb cameos? Other than Eddie Murphy, sure. Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) manages to appear in the background at one point in a "blink or you'll miss it". Tom Hanks appears as one of the Redshirts. Ben Stiller, pre-fame, as an extra.
 
Honestly, the biggest threat to ever seeing a 9th Doctor is the massive UK fan blowback causing the BBC to kill it for being "not worth the angry mail". That appears to be a very likely scenario and is the direction I am currently leaning. Whether it ever gets rebooted, well, that's decades away from the right now and I'll worry about that some other day.
Good call. I'd say this thread has been the perfect test case for how the BBC will tackle Who projects in the future, which is beyond the scope of this timeline I'd wager.
 
Not a fan and don't care either way, but what're the odds of getting an American-flavoured remake like with The Office?
Maybe that's how to handle it? NPH heads off to star in the American remake, to escape the toxic fans. Doctor Who goes on hiatus to revamp the show; the aforementioned fans settle down, thinking they've "won" by driving away the Yanks.

Unfortunately, the new BBC showrunner learns the wrong lesson from the NPH run, and is extremely timid about introducing new ideas lest the old fans be angered. It almost becomes a drinking game to spot the story "ideas" rehashed from earlier shows. Soon tiring of the bland imitation of their beloved show, the old fans give up -- and their badmouthing of the show keeps new people from watching it. Doctor Who dies off with a whimper.
 
I’m glad we’re done with Dr Who, frankly—it’s very tangential to the main plot and most of the discussion around it felt like a way for people to try and get their wish list.

This Star Trek movie sounds very interesting, flawed but not overly so. I’ve always felt Trek was at its best when it got all philosophizing...
 
I'd love to see this Star Trek movie! Definitely sounds like it would be lower tier in terms of enjoyment, but higher than OTL's V. I'd be curious to see if this would affect Shatner's career at all, given that it isn't a big punchline as it is in our timeline. Be curious to see if he continued to do any directing as Nimroy did, even if in a limited capacity. With Plummer now out of the running for a potential Star Trek 6, I'm curious to see if and/or how that movie changes. Great stuff!
 
What a fascinating Star Trek film from a production and writing standpoint. I don't have much to comment from it but it sure does look middle of the road for the Star Trek canon. Not amazing, not offensively horrible, but decent enough for both the crew and the fanbase.

Can't wait to see what you do next for Star Trek VI or TNG!

The consensus appears to be "save but hiatus", which for this timeline effectively means "Kill" because by the time I reach the OTL reboot period this TL will have moved far beyond OTL and you could at best expect a single post or perhaps a brief mention. I had an idea for a 9th Doctor in 1993 featuring a now big UK name but it appears there's no desire here to see it, so I'll probably just let Who fade away.
I still think that you should at least do a 9th Doctor anyways as a passing mention or a post to close out the classic era of Who, quite possibly in hellfire as the Orthodox Whovians would be so toxic as the viewing figures go down that the BBC decides to can it.

This probably means that a British revival is completely untenable, in my opinion. The British public probably still hates or mocks Doctor Who while the Orthodox Whovians will cling to the old classic Doctors and probably look at news of a revival with such derision and suspicion that the BBC decides that it's not worth the effort after a single mention of backlash for a new Doctor Who. Under such a tense environment I don't even think the Big Finish audio dramas will be a thing as the post-DW era might not be remembered as a fond memory of the past but a show that crapped the bed and is seen as a Yankee show or a show that was ruined by the fanbase. There's not even much of a point anyways as Colin Baker and Richard Griffiths got a pretty good run as the 6th/7th Doctor ITTL and they might end up refusing after seeing the reaction to the 8th Doctor and his companions.

Ironically if the BBC abruptly cancelled the show after the 8th or 9th Doctor, then I can see the Americans be the ones that look at Doctor Who fondly, especially once they discover old reruns over VHS, VCDs, or in the internet during the 00s or the early 10s after they grew out of their childhood years. They'll be like: "What happened to the show? This show is actually good!" and be confused as to why the show ended so quickly. And then they discover what happened and clamor for it to return, this time without the Orthodox Whovians.

So in this case the only viable revival is if the Americans get to lead a new revival of Doctor Who in a collaboration with BBC during the late 00s or early 2010s, with a hybrid American/British crew. It could also just die if American nostalgia isn't enough to bring the show back, but I'd like a happy ending for the show, at least.

In the case that Doctor Who does die a tragic death, there's got to be a new British sci-fi that replaces it, or else the Americans are just going to swamp them with Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, or B5 if there are even fans of sci-fi across the pond. Perhaps Dreadnought could be the series to be, or a Blake's 7 reboot?
 
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I’m glad we’re done with Dr Who, frankly—it’s very tangential to the main plot and most of the discussion around it felt like a way for people to try and get their wish list.
At least if Doctor Who dies, then we have officially decimated Superwholock as a thing in this timeline. That's definitely one positive to get out of this whole debacle.
 
So, changing the subject a little, what has Don Bluth been up to this whole time? Obviously, we know the 90s were a mixed time for him and saw the end of his studio and his main animating career outside of Titan A.E. IOTL. My view is that of ABC and Hollywood Ani really want to compete with Disney in the big leagues...Well..... ''It might be Nice. It might be Niiiiiice~''
 
Star Trek V here will be really interesting for trek lore, especially if TNG Spock is still on a personal mission to reunify Vulcan and Romulus.
Maybe his speech can include something about hope for future reunification, "but this isn't the way" to lay the groundwork.

TNG Romulan ridges or not?
Hopefully not, it throws away the idea Romulans can just pass for Vulcans. And it will let Star Trek explore the fact they are the same species with the only differences being cultural.
 
Star Trek V here will be really interesting for trek lore, especially if TNG Spock is still on a personal mission to reunify Vulcan and Romulus.
Maybe his speech can include something about hope for future reunification, "but this isn't the way" to lay the groundwork.
Yes, let's say that. :cool:

So, changing the subject a little, what has Don Bluth been up to this whole time? Obviously, we know the 90s were a mixed time for him and saw the end of his studio and his main animating career outside of Titan A.E. IOTL. My view is that of ABC and Hollywood Ani really want to compete with Disney in the big leagues...Well..... ''It might be Nice. It might be Niiiiiice~''
Bluth will come up again, as will Hollywood Animation.
 
Well it looks like the careers of Harve Bennett, Shatner as a director, Cynthia Gouw, and Bran Ferren (assuming they're all here too) are saved ITTL!
For Bennett, maybe the film doing well will make Paramount go through with his idea for a prequel about Kirk and Spock, The Academy Years (look it up).
 
they might as well add a third stop in the middle. Disneyland Athens, anybody?
Italy was already rejected as a Disneyland site in favor of Spain, but I wonder if being a cruise ship stop in southern Italy might make it worth a second look.

A maybe cheaper idea would be to sprinkle Disney Towns at potential cruise stops. Get off the ship and spend some time with the Disney interpretation of the area before going to see the originals.
 
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