A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)

[woweed]

Yeah, The Transformers were a toy commercial. Some part of me wants to defend that (Is there really that much difference between Transformers encouraging Regan-era kids to prop up the economy and buy more toys, and, say, Grimm's Fairy Tales encouraging kids of its day to follow the accepted cultural values of their society?), and I think the movie and lots of the show manages to transcend that and actually be very interesting as sci-fi, with some very cool ideas and concepts popping up. But, yes, it started as a toy commercial. However, it was so good at being that that it kinda...Transcended it? Like, the point of killing off Optimus was to encourage kids to buy the new leader and all his new stuff...Yeah, Hasbro ultimately brought him back, because kids, and their parents, were sending them angry letters about their grief. In a sense, it worked: Kids connected with the product, but they certainly didn't become unquestioning drones of Hasbro. It worked so well as a commercial, it ceased to be useful in that role. Hm. It was meant to sell toys, but it became something more, it resonated, and it doesn't really matter what the intent was. Just as George Lucas intending the Prequels to be good, didn't make them so, Hasbro intending Transformers to be a toy commercial didn't make that all it was. You know, I actually find the fact that the movie was Orson Welles last role to be oddly fitting. Transformers were toys, but they connected with an entire generation. And, while this is something darkly ironic about a man whose greatest film was about his fear of corporate media appearing in the most corporate of all media....There's also something to be said for a man whose greatest movie involves a man's humanity, the sole good trait left in him, being attached to a toy he loved as a kid, having his last role in a commercial for a toy that has, for lots of kids of the time, defined them just as much as Rosebud defined Charles Foster Kane.

 

[Plateosaurus]

@woweed Damn. Impressive observations.

 

[Nerdman3000]

@Geekhis Khan So I recently made a fan cover for your rather excellent timeline which I wanted to share with you. I hope you like it:

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

@Geekhis Khan So I recently made a fan cover for your rather excellent timeline which I wanted to share with you. I hope you like it:

This is just beautiful. Nothing more needs to be said here.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Yeah, The Transformers were a toy commercial. Some part of me wants to defend that (Is there really that much difference between Transformers encouraging Regan-era kids to prop up the economy and buy more toys, and, say, Grimm's Fairy Tales encouraging kids of its day to follow the accepted cultural values of the day?), and I think the movie and lots of the show manages to transcend that and actually be very interesting as sci-fi, with some very cool ideas and concepts popping up. But, yes, it started as a toy commercial. However, it was so good at being that that it kinda...Transcended it? Like, the point of killing off Optimus was to encourage kids to buy the new leader and all his new stuff...Yeah, Hasbro ultimately brought him back, because kids, and their parents, were sending them angry letters about their grief. In a sense, it worked: Kids connected with the story, but they certainly didn't become unquestioning drones of Hasbro. It worked so well as a commercial it ceased to be useful. Hm. It was meant to sell toys, but it became something more, it resonated, and it doesn't really matter what the intent was. Just as George Lucas intending the Prequels to be good, didn't make them so, Hasbro intending Transformers to be a toy commercial didn't make that all it was. You know, I actually find the fact that was Orson Welles last role to be oddly fitting. Transformers were toys, but they connected with an entire generation. And, while this is something darkly ironic about a man whose greatest film was about his fear of corporate media appearing in the most corporate of all media....There's also something to be said for a man whose greatest movie involves a man's humanity, the sole good trait left in him, being attached to a toy he loved as a kid, having his last role in something that has, for a lot of kids, defined their lives.

I actually fully agree with everything you said and huge thumbs up for how well you make the case. I thought that Transformers were definitely a step above the other toy-driven franchises of the era and frankly far better in terms of story, character, and socially redeeming value than the Michael Bay films. Part of writing from another person's perspective is, of course, not having them react to something the way you would react, but how they would react. So on occasion I have to put aside my own wants for what's actually plausible. So, yea, I loved Transformers the series, movie, and, yes, the toys. Jim Henson, I suspect, would have different opinions.

@Geekhis Khan So I recently made a fan cover for your rather excellent timeline which I wanted to share with you. I hope you like it:

That's amazing, thank you! I may just add it into the original post!

*Edit* Just added to the original post, thank you @Nerdman3000

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

So, yea, I loved Transformers the series, movie, and, yes, the toys. Jim Henson, I suspect, would have different opinions.

Being your TL you can also use argue like this to try and persuaded Henson to see thing from different perspective too.

I may just add it into the original post!

I imagine that's why he created it.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

I can always appreciate how Welles was so talented he could phone in a performance and still be perfect for the role. The bored vocals of a tired old man who didn't give a damn about the material fit rather well with Unicron's character. The god the size of a planet isn't going to treat any of the characters with anything but contempt.

There's something about how Marvel put the effort into all the toy-based comics they made. The Transformers as characters wouldn't exist without them. "Cobra" as a concept wouldn't exist without the Marvel comic. Even a shitty electronic space robot toy got a well-written comic adaptation. And the Rom action figures weren't even being sold by the time they ended the comic.

 

[Pyro]

Like, the point of killing off Optimus was to encourage kids to buy the new leader and all his new stuff...Yeah, Hasbro ultimately brought him back, because kids, and their parents, were sending them angry letters about their grief. In a sense, it worked: Kids connected with the story, but they certainly didn't become unquestioning drones of Hasbro.

I would attribute some of that to Peter Cullen's performance as Optimus Prime, which me modeled on his brother as he as stated in multiple interviews.

“When he came home, there was a marked difference in his overall demeanour,” says Cullen, in an interview with Postmedia. “But his advice to me was that to be a leader, be strong and compassionate. Don’t be a yelling, screaming, Hollywood phoney. The tone of his voice was very, very clear and compassionate and soft with depth. I went to the audition and there it was. It was Larry, my brother, on the pages in front of me. That’s how I handled it.”

Kids could hear both the firmness and gentleness in Optimus' voice and I imagine many would identify as a father figure, which is why his death in the 1986 film upset so many children and led to their parents demanding his return. Note that not many were clamoring for Prowl or Wheeljack's return. Optimus might have been in the film for less than fifteen minutes, but Cullen's performance made nearly every line he spoke memorable.

...and then we got Rodimus Prime who definitely gave off a "buy product, get excited for next product" vibe.

 

[Ogrebear]

For me it was Marvel UK's Transformers line that really sold TF to me- sure I watch the original cartoon, but the UK comics added so much more under Simon Furman's pen.

When Marvel UK wrapped up during the bankruptcy the team even managed to give the TF story an actual non-grimdark ending. It was a glorious read.

 

[TheMolluskLingers]

@Geekhis Khan So I recently made a fan cover for your rather excellent timeline which I wanted to share with you. I hope you like it:

@Kalvan, put this on the trope page too!

 

[Geekhis Khan]

I can always appreciate how Welles was so talented he could phone in a performance and still be perfect for the role. The bored vocals of a tired old man who didn't give a damn about the material fit rather well with Unicron's character. The god the size of a planet isn't going to treat any of the characters with anything but contempt.

There's something about how Marvel put the effort into all the toy-based comics they made. The Transformers as characters wouldn't exist without them. "Cobra" as a concept wouldn't exist without the Marvel comic. Even a shitty electronic space robot toy got a well-written comic adaptation. And the Rom action figures weren't even being sold by the time they ended the comic.

Being your TL you can also use argue like this to try and persuaded Henson to see thing from different perspective too.

Kids could hear both the firmness and gentleness in Optimus' voice and I imagine many would identify as a father figure, which is why his death in the 1986 film upset so many children and led to their parents demanding his return. Note that not many were clamoring for Prowl or Wheeljack's return. Optimus might have been in the film for less than fifteen minutes, but Cullen's performance made nearly every line he spoke memorable.

...and then we got Rodimus Prime who definitely gave off a "buy product, get excited for next product" vibe.

For me it was Marvel UK's Transformers line that really sold TF to me- sure I watch the original cartoon, but the UK comics added so much more under Simon Furman's pen.

When Marvel UK wrapped up during the bankruptcy the team even managed to give the TF story an actual non-grimdark ending. It was a glorious read.

Message received loud and clear! Expect a post in a few days on the Transformers under Disney!

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

Message received loud and clear! Expect a post in a few days on the Transformers under Disney!

On that note, can we see what the rest of Marvel Productions is like under Disney?

 

[Pyro]

Message received loud and clear! Expect a post in a few days on the Transformers under Disney!

It's work noting that Cullen was a voice actor on Muppet Babies and worked for Disney as a voice actor on Ducktales OTL. I would like to believe that the two might pass by each other in the hallway ITTL.

 

[woweed]

Message received loud and clear! Expect a post in a few days on the Transformers under Disney!

...Disney buys out Hasbro.

Seriously, though, make sure it's uh, in-character, as it were.

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

It's work noting that Cullen was a voice actor on Muppet Babies and worked for Disney as a voice actor on Ducktales OTL. I would like to believe that the two might pass by each other in the hallway ITTL.

Not to mention that, in our timeline, he's the regular voice of Eeyore! Imagine putting on your resume that you followed up portraying a legitimate father figure by acting as a depressed stuffed animal.

...Disney buys out Hasbro.

Well, in this timeline, Disney actually owns D&D, so them owning a prestigious toymaker like Hasbro afterwards would make as much sense by comparison.

 

[woweed]

Not to mention that, in our timeline, he's the regular voice of Eeyore! Imagine putting on your resume that you followed up portraying a legitimate father figure by acting as a depressed stuffed animal.

Well, in this timeline, Disney actually owns D&D, so them owning a prestigious toymaker like Hasbro afterwards would make as much sense by comparison.

Hasbro actually owns D&D IOTL! They bought out WOTC a while back.

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

Hasbro actually owns D&D IOTL! They bought out WOTC a while back.

Yeah, but I was referring to that article from ITTL in which Disney purchased TSR and made a kid-friendly D&D-esque game featuring the existing stable of classic characters. Yes, among the regular updates about movie history and big box office returns, somehow and in some way, Disney was able to outright purchase the company behind Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[GrandMaster]

You should have Disney acquire a stake in Beacon Computers; that would be a nice complement to their existing computer technology.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Part 5: Black Leather and Silver Screens
Excerpt from Dark Funhouse, the Art and Work of Tim Burton, an Illustrated Compendium

1987 saw Burton’s live action directorial debut with the teenage drama Jonathan Scissorhands, a film starring River Phoenix as the titular Jonathan and Winona Ryder[1] as Alicia, his love interest. It was based upon a screenplay written by Caroline Thompson, who’d impressed Burton with her debut novel, the bizarre and macabre First Born.

And it all began with a single sketch that Burton drew as a teenager, one which reflected his sense of isolation.

Burton’s original sketch (Image source: “zoomoncontemporaryart.com”)

“Every teenager feels like Jonathan at some point.” – River Phoenix

Ryder was the very first name attached to the script and Burton had been greatly impressed by her performance in 1986’s Lucas. Phoenix, meanwhile, was suggested by Steven Spielberg, who had been impressed by Phoenix’s performance in Stand by Me[2]. Rounding out the cast was the legendary Vincent Price, who plays Jonathan’s creator/father, the mad scientist simply called “The Inventor”.

Tim meets Jonathan behind the scenes (Image source “bookshelfcinema.blogspot.com”)

The film is, at its heart, a coming-of-age story. The movie’s themes of isolation, alienation, and the mercenary and fickle nature of popularity struck a chord with people of all ages and backgrounds, but particularly with teenagers. Similarly, Burton’s direction managed to portray the brightly-colored suburbia as the strange and alien world and the abandoned gothic mansion where Jonathan lived as the safe and normal world. Although his first feature direction, Burton’s signature German Expressionist inspired style can already be seen in the lighting and framing and use of Dutch angles and shadows.

Finally, the original score and soundtrack by The Cure’s Robert Smith lends a strange, ethereal, and alien quality to it all.

Essentially this…

Jonathan Scissorhands was released in the spring of 1987 where it became a sleeper hit, slowly gaining momentum based upon word of mouth and critical acclaim (The Daily Telegraph would call it “a modern-day fairy tale”). It would go on to make over $70 million against its $19 million budget and do brisk business in video sales and rentals. It remains a beloved classic to this day. Phoenix’s acting was given a lot of acclaim, with Roger Ebert, who was otherwise not fond of the movie, making special note of Phoenix’s portrayal, calling out his “gentle pathos” and “visceral humanity”. Phoenix would cite the role as one of his favorites. “There was such a truth to the role,” said Phoenix in a later interview. “I mean, the concept is so bizarre that it would have been easy to make Jonathan into something alien rather than someone alienated. Every teenager feels like Jonathan at some point.”

Jonathan Scissorhands is regarded by some as Burton’s magnum opus, though others would cite other works. Regardless of where you place it in his filmography, however, few would deny that it is one of his greatest and an incredible debut.

---

[1] Both actors will be actual teenagers for this movie (Phoenix would be 16 and Ryder 15 at the time of filming) lending this film a level of authenticity often lost when using 20-somethings to play teens. This was a serious creative risk for Burton to take and had he used actors of lower caliber than Phoenix and Ryder it might have sunk the show. Normally a studio would push back on this. It reflects on the culture Henson has imposed at Disney that Burton was given free rein in casting. Also, Spielberg is a fan of casting age-appropriate actors as witnessed by his many productions.

[2] Follow the Butterflies: Mickey Roarke was in Beverly Hills Cop and thus (due to butterflies) not in Year of the Dragon. However, he will be in 9½ Weeks anyway as he was Adrian Lyne’s choice alongside Kim Bassinger from the beginning. Lyne will thus still be taking a break after 9½ Weeks and thus Rob Reiner will still ultimately be handed Stand by Me (a logical 2nd-order butterfly!) and cast Phoenix et al. as per our timeline. I can’t find any direct butterflies to make any definitive changes to Stand by Me. I could bring in random butterflies and shake things up, but that would drive things into the Fiction Zone far too quickly.

 

[Ogrebear]

Nice, but essentially the same Edward Sissorhands- I actually prefer the title Jonathan Scissorhands here, feels kinda more 'formal' to me and fits that gothic tone better. The Cure soundtrack is going to sell tons, like Queen's Flash soundtrack did.

Stand By Me was a great movie, and I am sure AltMe would have enjoyed it as much as I did along with this film. I hope River Phoenix has a long and sucessful career.

No Mr Depp - did Burton not meet him here?

Has there been any other butterflies for Vincent Price ITTL?

Nice work @Geekhis Khan