I think the bigger question might be if The New Adventures of Winnie-the-Pooh is still made. That show was a cornerstone of my early childhood (and perhaps yours if your username means what I think it does). Maybe it could run longer? Only 50 episodes, and back then Disney actually allowed shows to run 100 episodes sometimes before they imposed the 65-episode limit. Imagine double the episode count! Why the show would probably still be on in syndication today, it managed to run into the new millennium with just 50...
A Hippie in the House of Mouse (Jim Henson at Disney, 1980)
- Thread starter Geekhis Khan
- Start date
- Status
@Geekhis Khan It's a minor nitpick about your Muppets Go Disney update, but the Hall of Presidents is at Disney World, not Disneyland. In California, Sam the Eagle would probably see Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln.
As long as Jim Cummings is there, I don't mind either way what Milne Story they choose to adapt. But New Adventures must remain untouchable. More importantly, what will become of Welcome to Pooh Corner? Will they turn down the people in sits idea, in favor of a more Muppet Styled approach?
Copy, thanks! I'll make the edit.
Pooh will certainly make an appearance. Maybe not in exactly the form you recall, but he'll be there one way or another.
I do hope continuing Pooh projects maintain the 'living storybook' aesthetic of the early shorts. It's still very charming to watch the characters interacting with the narrator and written words surrounding them. Perhaps a running gag where Gopher (who is original to the animated franchise) complains about the British spelling of the story, being an American character.
Citation needed!
I distinctly recall going in to the Hall of Presidents and the Lincoln speech, with the evening sky turning into a huge Stars and Stripes, in Anaheim.
Now perhaps my memory deceives me but I've been to Disneyland an order of magnitude more times than I have to Disney World--I think I only went to DW a grand total of three times, the last time when EPCOT was new and I focused on EPCOT and some rides in DW proper. My memory of the HoP seems anchored in Anaheim, and my latest visit to it after I was an adult--that last trip to DW was a Senior Class trip from my (west) Florida high school class; I have never been back to eastern Florida since 1984.
I can well believe that HoP premiered in DW, and was retrofitted, perhaps on a smaller scale, into DL later, and perhaps it was hosted at DL only relatively briefly and the venue (on Main Street USA, just to the right of the main entrance IIRC) repurposed to something else. (I can't imagine what would take priority in that not too much in demand sector of the park though).
God knows I have not been to DL in the last two decades--well pretty near, I think it was spring 2004 was my last and quite ill-starred visit. And certainly checking out HoP was no priority of mine in that last visit, and my most frequent visits were in the late '80s and very early '90s.
So I'm betting diligent research will show that HoP was a thing in Disneyland sometime in the period 1985-1995, and I would think pretty much contemporary with it at DW at least until the mid-90s, when I suppose it might have been cancelled.
The HoP I remember had Carter and Reagan in it, and perhaps GHW Bush.
dcharles
Banned
The Hall of Presidents - Wikipedia
Says here that there's an attraction called "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" in Anaheim, so that's probably what you're remembering.
Is the official Disney fan club's history of the attraction good enough? It specifically says that while Walt Disney had the idea for the Hall of Presidents during the planning for Disneyland, the animatronics weren't sufficiently developed at that time and in any case for various reasons they didn't build the section of the park that the attraction was meant to be a part of. So they matured it over the next 10-15 years and eventually deployed it in Disney World, instead, as they had refined the technology and were building a different park, anyway.
Jack Lindquist I: Muppet Show Live animatronic attraction
Chapter 18: Muppets at the Magic Kingdom!
Excerpt from In the Service of the Mouse: A Memoir, by Jack Lindquist
I’ve always taken joy in the big event, and the arrival of Jim Henson’s Muppets in 1980 was no different. At the time they were the biggest of big deals: number one TV show in the world, blockbuster movie the year before, and now they were coming to the Magic Kingdom!
That October I met Ron, Jim, and Jim’s assistant [SIC] David Lazer to discuss our future together. Jim was tall, thin, and constantly smiled, but he had that mind-in-the-future “dreamer’s eye” you see in visionaries. I saw it in Walt and I could see it in Jim. David was more a businessman like me, so I found him invaluable in simply translating the grand ideas Jim had, but had trouble expressing, into something tangible. We all knew we needed an event to commemorate the new deal. Ron wanted a Muppet Show at Disneyland and Disney World. Easy enough. We came up with the idea for a simple audio-animatronic stage show recreation of a Muppet Show episode. Basically, each of the Muppets would appear on stage as themselves, in oversized “puppet” form, only with audio-animatronic guts rather than a puppeteer’s hand controlling the action. The park’s visitors would, of course, be the “audience” for the show.
Each show ultimately followed a series of programmed motions synched to pre-recorded audio from the original puppeteers like Jim, Frank Oz, and Dave Goelz, among others. We considered, but then rejected the idea of human guest stars simply because of the logistical challenges of relying on a permanent human presence that might quit, get sick, or make mistakes (not to mention require a regular paycheck!). Instead, we had several all-Muppet “skits”: the big Muppet Show intro that mirrored the show’s opening credits, Kermit’s intro with unexpected interruption from Scooter, a recreation of Pigs in Space, a recreation of the Swedish Chef, Fozzie doing Stand Up, and other transient skits that were modified or swapped out over the years. And, of course, audio-animatronic Statler and Waldorf in a box seat overlooking everything, harassing the performers.
Our Imagineering team worked closely with some of the Muppet designer-builders, in particular one “Faz” Fazakas, who had an innate understanding of the mechanics of animatronics and had recently developed some amazingly lifelike animatronic work[1] for an Emmet Otter special and the Muppet Movie. Even the veteran Imagineers were amazed at the range and complexity of motion and realistic movements Faz was able to give each character! The biggest challenge was finding fabrics and stitching techniques that could withstand the mechanical stress and hold up with time but still look like felt.
There were two promotional areas that we pursued at the time to drum up interest in the new attraction. The first was a TV special crossover where Kermit and Company come to visit Disneyland while Muppet versions of Walt’s creations (Mickey, Donald, and the like) take over hosting The Muppet Show. The special was a smash hit and helped drum up interest in the new attraction, seeing a noteworthy spike in attendance and long lines for the Muppet Show Live for months.
The second promotional area was more immersive and the forerunner of some of my future Big Events. For 6 months Mickey would host a “Grand Celebration” welcoming the Muppets. We added a Kermit face alongside Mickey’s within the flower garden. We added Muppet walk-arounds. We hid various Muppet characters in static form around the park, within various rides, or hanging from various buildings for visitors to find (we even provided “Muppet Scavenger Hunt” cards for guests to check off!). Among my favorite of these “hidden Muppets” was one of Gonzo, hanging off of a bunch of balloons like he had in the Muppet Movie and the TV spot, mounted to the skyway track and seeming to fly across the parks.
Alas, some of my bigger ideas were rejected, like painting the Matterhorn Kermit Green or having Miss Piggy as a Disney Princess hanging out from a window of Cinderella’s Castle[2].
In the end, the success of the Muppet feature would lead to the creation of the Muppetland attraction in 1984, which was a sort of chaotic “Magic Kingdom in miniature”, a self-aware funhouse mirror reflection of the original Magic Kingdom, complete with spoofs-in-miniature of the various “lands” and attractions. My personal favorites were always “Day After Tomorrowland” and the “Hall of Muppet Presidents”, though I also loved “Left-Frontierland’s” recreation of the western standoff scene from the Muppet Movie, complete with giant Animal bursting out of the building.
[1] The animatronics that Faz, Jim, and Brian Henson developed were groundbreaking and ahead of everyone else in the industry at the time in terms of their fluidity and number of motions. They repurposed NASA radio control technology. Faz and Brian would win an Oscar for their animatronic work in 1989 on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
[2] In our timeline, when Jim was trying to sell the Muppets to Disney shortly before his death in 1990, Lindquist envisioned a year-long “Muppets Take over Disney” event featuring the green Matterhorn, Kermit replacing Mickey in floral form, and crude “nailed on” signs for each attraction with the Muppets staking their claim. The plan fell through when the Muppet deal did.
Disney Stocks Up amid Muppet Mania
Wall Street Journal, July 10th, 1981
Walt Disney Productions’ stock price (DIS) surged 5.4% this quarter, up to $72 a share thanks in large part to new theme park attractions and creative endeavors featuring the popular Muppets. Disney reported higher-than-expected quarterly profits thanks to a spike in park attendance and high Nielsen ratings for a joint TV special made with the privately-held Henson Associates company. This continues an upward growth trend initiated with Jim Henson’s ascension to the Disney Board of Directors and reflects growing expectation among investors that Henson will bring new creativity and innovation to the venerable Disney, whose stock price languished in the late 1970s.
Excerpt from In the Service of the Mouse: A Memoir, by Jack Lindquist
I’ve always taken joy in the big event, and the arrival of Jim Henson’s Muppets in 1980 was no different. At the time they were the biggest of big deals: number one TV show in the world, blockbuster movie the year before, and now they were coming to the Magic Kingdom!
That October I met Ron, Jim, and Jim’s assistant [SIC] David Lazer to discuss our future together. Jim was tall, thin, and constantly smiled, but he had that mind-in-the-future “dreamer’s eye” you see in visionaries. I saw it in Walt and I could see it in Jim. David was more a businessman like me, so I found him invaluable in simply translating the grand ideas Jim had, but had trouble expressing, into something tangible. We all knew we needed an event to commemorate the new deal. Ron wanted a Muppet Show at Disneyland and Disney World. Easy enough. We came up with the idea for a simple audio-animatronic stage show recreation of a Muppet Show episode. Basically, each of the Muppets would appear on stage as themselves, in oversized “puppet” form, only with audio-animatronic guts rather than a puppeteer’s hand controlling the action. The park’s visitors would, of course, be the “audience” for the show.
Each show ultimately followed a series of programmed motions synched to pre-recorded audio from the original puppeteers like Jim, Frank Oz, and Dave Goelz, among others. We considered, but then rejected the idea of human guest stars simply because of the logistical challenges of relying on a permanent human presence that might quit, get sick, or make mistakes (not to mention require a regular paycheck!). Instead, we had several all-Muppet “skits”: the big Muppet Show intro that mirrored the show’s opening credits, Kermit’s intro with unexpected interruption from Scooter, a recreation of Pigs in Space, a recreation of the Swedish Chef, Fozzie doing Stand Up, and other transient skits that were modified or swapped out over the years. And, of course, audio-animatronic Statler and Waldorf in a box seat overlooking everything, harassing the performers.
Our Imagineering team worked closely with some of the Muppet designer-builders, in particular one “Faz” Fazakas, who had an innate understanding of the mechanics of animatronics and had recently developed some amazingly lifelike animatronic work[1] for an Emmet Otter special and the Muppet Movie. Even the veteran Imagineers were amazed at the range and complexity of motion and realistic movements Faz was able to give each character! The biggest challenge was finding fabrics and stitching techniques that could withstand the mechanical stress and hold up with time but still look like felt.
There were two promotional areas that we pursued at the time to drum up interest in the new attraction. The first was a TV special crossover where Kermit and Company come to visit Disneyland while Muppet versions of Walt’s creations (Mickey, Donald, and the like) take over hosting The Muppet Show. The special was a smash hit and helped drum up interest in the new attraction, seeing a noteworthy spike in attendance and long lines for the Muppet Show Live for months.
The second promotional area was more immersive and the forerunner of some of my future Big Events. For 6 months Mickey would host a “Grand Celebration” welcoming the Muppets. We added a Kermit face alongside Mickey’s within the flower garden. We added Muppet walk-arounds. We hid various Muppet characters in static form around the park, within various rides, or hanging from various buildings for visitors to find (we even provided “Muppet Scavenger Hunt” cards for guests to check off!). Among my favorite of these “hidden Muppets” was one of Gonzo, hanging off of a bunch of balloons like he had in the Muppet Movie and the TV spot, mounted to the skyway track and seeming to fly across the parks.
Alas, some of my bigger ideas were rejected, like painting the Matterhorn Kermit Green or having Miss Piggy as a Disney Princess hanging out from a window of Cinderella’s Castle[2].
In the end, the success of the Muppet feature would lead to the creation of the Muppetland attraction in 1984, which was a sort of chaotic “Magic Kingdom in miniature”, a self-aware funhouse mirror reflection of the original Magic Kingdom, complete with spoofs-in-miniature of the various “lands” and attractions. My personal favorites were always “Day After Tomorrowland” and the “Hall of Muppet Presidents”, though I also loved “Left-Frontierland’s” recreation of the western standoff scene from the Muppet Movie, complete with giant Animal bursting out of the building.
[1] The animatronics that Faz, Jim, and Brian Henson developed were groundbreaking and ahead of everyone else in the industry at the time in terms of their fluidity and number of motions. They repurposed NASA radio control technology. Faz and Brian would win an Oscar for their animatronic work in 1989 on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
[2] In our timeline, when Jim was trying to sell the Muppets to Disney shortly before his death in 1990, Lindquist envisioned a year-long “Muppets Take over Disney” event featuring the green Matterhorn, Kermit replacing Mickey in floral form, and crude “nailed on” signs for each attraction with the Muppets staking their claim. The plan fell through when the Muppet deal did.
* * *
Disney Stocks Up amid Muppet Mania
Wall Street Journal, July 10th, 1981
Walt Disney Productions’ stock price (DIS) surged 5.4% this quarter, up to $72 a share thanks in large part to new theme park attractions and creative endeavors featuring the popular Muppets. Disney reported higher-than-expected quarterly profits thanks to a spike in park attendance and high Nielsen ratings for a joint TV special made with the privately-held Henson Associates company. This continues an upward growth trend initiated with Jim Henson’s ascension to the Disney Board of Directors and reflects growing expectation among investors that Henson will bring new creativity and innovation to the venerable Disney, whose stock price languished in the late 1970s.
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The creation of a 'live' Muppet Show theatre is a great idea, something I'm rather surprised wasn't done OTL at some point.
I also like the idea of the Muppet 'Scavenger Hunt', something I can see variations of becoming a regular at the parks, perhaps with annual changes or themes (and the tally-cards themselves becoming collector's items). Maybe even a 'hard mode' where you aren't told what to look for (you have to write in what you found) and the card only has clues on where to find the next one.
I also like the idea of the Muppet 'Scavenger Hunt', something I can see variations of becoming a regular at the parks, perhaps with annual changes or themes (and the tally-cards themselves becoming collector's items). Maybe even a 'hard mode' where you aren't told what to look for (you have to write in what you found) and the card only has clues on where to find the next one.
Maybe so.
Thank you, GrahamB. It's fun to come up with alternate attractions.
Animator's Perspective III: Fox and the Hound
Chapter 4: Ain’t Nothin’ but a Hound Dog
Post from the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Terrell Little.
My first job at Disney was as an inbetweener on The Fox and the Hound. Like a lot of the new employees, I hated the movie, but not for the same reasons. Most of the Rat’s Nest hated it for being a rehash of the same tired old Disney formula and playing it too safe with the animation. Brad Bird had gotten fired for making his negative opinions of it known[1].
I hated it because it was segregationist garbage[2] and a painful reminder of my past.
I couldn’t believe anyone wanted to tell such an awful, outdated story. How could Woolie not see the terrible lesson we were telling? Stay with your own. Don’t mix with other races. It will all end in tragedy. I expressed my concerns to Ron Clements, who was taking lead on the story, but he had a different take. “It’s about prejudice and how it separates us[3],” he said. “It’s a tragedy, not a positive example.”
Easy for him to say. He didn’t grow up black in Alabama!
Still, though, I took his view to heart. I’d do my best to focus on it as a tragedy of prejudice and ignore what I feared could be construed as Jim Crow propaganda. It’s not like Disney has the best record there, as my family loved to remind me when I took this job.
Oh well. Paycheck’s a paycheck. And the gig came with a few perks. I got to meet the stars who voiced the characters. Cory Feldman before he got famous. Mikey Rooney, who regaled us all with Old Hollywood stories. Pearl Bailey, who buried Steve Hulett’s face in her cleavage to everyone’s amusement. Oh, and former child star Kurt Russell, just before his big break out in Escape from New York. He still sported his GI Blues Elvis hair, since he was filming the TV Elvis Biopic at the time. Ironically, another reminder of life in the old south. It would win him an Emmy. Here, he was voicing the adult Copper, the eponymous Hound[4].
I had “You Ain’t Nothin’ But a Hound Dog” stuck in my head for a week.
But The Fox and the Hound was overall a good learning experience and, in hindsight, quite an honor to be a part of. I got to share in that strange passing-of-the-torch moment where the Old Men like Woolie and Art Stevens were working with the soon-to-be big names like Lassiter and Clements. It was also a passing-of-the-torch moment for the actors, the old stars (Rooney and Bailey) passing the torch to the new one (Feldman) and an actor who spanned both eras (Russell).
It was also the first project that Jim Henson was associated with, though most of the film was already in the can by the time he joined. In fact, Jim’s only contributions were two recommendations, both ignored by Art and Woolie.
First, he wanted to add a scene at the end where two of Tod and Copper’s children meet and form a friendship. Ron Clements rejected the idea as an attempt to force in a “happy ending”, fearing it would undermine the power of the bittersweet finale.
But I got it. It wasn’t “happy” Jim was going for, it was “hopeful”. The promise of the next generation overcoming the mistakes of the prior ones. Time moving forward, not backwards. Given my thoughts on the film, I fully supported the add, but who the hell was I?
The second recommendation Jim had was one close to Rod’s heart: he too wanted Chief to die.
Rod was pressing hard for Chief to die, as we all were on the creative side. It made no sense for Copper to go on a vengeance quest against his old friend if Chief only breaks his leg. There were no stakes. There was no motivation. We all knew it, but Art Stevens and the rest of the producers and directors weren’t going to have it. Disney would not kill off a central character. It wasn’t the Disney way.
Sure, if you don’t count Bambi’s mom.
Jim agreed wholeheartedly. He pleaded with Woolie, Art and Ron Miller. His pleas, like Ron Clements’, were rejected. Chief would live, and the story would suffer for it. We were all just cryin’ hound dogs to them.
Jim’s opinion (and ours) was validated when the film premiered. The film received mixed reviews. Many critics specifically called out Chief’s survival as a narrative weak point. The film made a decent profit, but it was a box office disappointment compared to Ron’s expectations. To this day, it’s few people’s favorite Disney cartoon.
But Jim accomplished one thing: by fighting for us, he earned our eternal gratitude. Of all the execs, Jim stood with us.
[1] I know there was a lot of hope that this would be butterflied, but as best as I can tell Bird was fired prior to 1980, seeing as how he was an animator for Animalympics, which aired in February of 1980. Besides, even Henson would have a hard time saving him when he was pretty openly insubordinate to upper management.
[2] Some have made this accusation.
[3] This, I believe, is the lesson Disney was trying to impart.
[4] All of this is recounted by Steve Hulett in Mouse in Transition.
Post from the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Terrell Little.
My first job at Disney was as an inbetweener on The Fox and the Hound. Like a lot of the new employees, I hated the movie, but not for the same reasons. Most of the Rat’s Nest hated it for being a rehash of the same tired old Disney formula and playing it too safe with the animation. Brad Bird had gotten fired for making his negative opinions of it known[1].
I hated it because it was segregationist garbage[2] and a painful reminder of my past.
I couldn’t believe anyone wanted to tell such an awful, outdated story. How could Woolie not see the terrible lesson we were telling? Stay with your own. Don’t mix with other races. It will all end in tragedy. I expressed my concerns to Ron Clements, who was taking lead on the story, but he had a different take. “It’s about prejudice and how it separates us[3],” he said. “It’s a tragedy, not a positive example.”
Easy for him to say. He didn’t grow up black in Alabama!
Still, though, I took his view to heart. I’d do my best to focus on it as a tragedy of prejudice and ignore what I feared could be construed as Jim Crow propaganda. It’s not like Disney has the best record there, as my family loved to remind me when I took this job.
Oh well. Paycheck’s a paycheck. And the gig came with a few perks. I got to meet the stars who voiced the characters. Cory Feldman before he got famous. Mikey Rooney, who regaled us all with Old Hollywood stories. Pearl Bailey, who buried Steve Hulett’s face in her cleavage to everyone’s amusement. Oh, and former child star Kurt Russell, just before his big break out in Escape from New York. He still sported his GI Blues Elvis hair, since he was filming the TV Elvis Biopic at the time. Ironically, another reminder of life in the old south. It would win him an Emmy. Here, he was voicing the adult Copper, the eponymous Hound[4].
I had “You Ain’t Nothin’ But a Hound Dog” stuck in my head for a week.
But The Fox and the Hound was overall a good learning experience and, in hindsight, quite an honor to be a part of. I got to share in that strange passing-of-the-torch moment where the Old Men like Woolie and Art Stevens were working with the soon-to-be big names like Lassiter and Clements. It was also a passing-of-the-torch moment for the actors, the old stars (Rooney and Bailey) passing the torch to the new one (Feldman) and an actor who spanned both eras (Russell).
It was also the first project that Jim Henson was associated with, though most of the film was already in the can by the time he joined. In fact, Jim’s only contributions were two recommendations, both ignored by Art and Woolie.
First, he wanted to add a scene at the end where two of Tod and Copper’s children meet and form a friendship. Ron Clements rejected the idea as an attempt to force in a “happy ending”, fearing it would undermine the power of the bittersweet finale.
But I got it. It wasn’t “happy” Jim was going for, it was “hopeful”. The promise of the next generation overcoming the mistakes of the prior ones. Time moving forward, not backwards. Given my thoughts on the film, I fully supported the add, but who the hell was I?
The second recommendation Jim had was one close to Rod’s heart: he too wanted Chief to die.
Rod was pressing hard for Chief to die, as we all were on the creative side. It made no sense for Copper to go on a vengeance quest against his old friend if Chief only breaks his leg. There were no stakes. There was no motivation. We all knew it, but Art Stevens and the rest of the producers and directors weren’t going to have it. Disney would not kill off a central character. It wasn’t the Disney way.
Sure, if you don’t count Bambi’s mom.
Jim agreed wholeheartedly. He pleaded with Woolie, Art and Ron Miller. His pleas, like Ron Clements’, were rejected. Chief would live, and the story would suffer for it. We were all just cryin’ hound dogs to them.
Jim’s opinion (and ours) was validated when the film premiered. The film received mixed reviews. Many critics specifically called out Chief’s survival as a narrative weak point. The film made a decent profit, but it was a box office disappointment compared to Ron’s expectations. To this day, it’s few people’s favorite Disney cartoon.
But Jim accomplished one thing: by fighting for us, he earned our eternal gratitude. Of all the execs, Jim stood with us.
[1] I know there was a lot of hope that this would be butterflied, but as best as I can tell Bird was fired prior to 1980, seeing as how he was an animator for Animalympics, which aired in February of 1980. Besides, even Henson would have a hard time saving him when he was pretty openly insubordinate to upper management.
[2] Some have made this accusation.
[3] This, I believe, is the lesson Disney was trying to impart.
[4] All of this is recounted by Steve Hulett in Mouse in Transition.
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Yes, alas. That's the thing about Hollywood. Productions can start several years ahead of their actual release. In the case of Disney animation it can take several years to complete a feature even once production starts in full, and pre-production on some things like The Black Cauldron were literally over a decade in the making even before the first cel was inked. In this case, with most of Fox & Hound already in the can even before the POD, there was little change Jim could have made to it. Even I get bummed by the limitations early on. I have had to abandon what I thought were some crazy awesome ideas simply due to the plausibility factor caused by long productions.
The changes elicited by Jim's presence will by nature be incremental, both due to the length of production and the organizational inertia for Jim to overcome. I know all too well how hard it can be to change entrenched group-think. The changes from this point forward will start small, but the butterflies will start to build up quickly as the years progress. In a few years' time things will be drastically changed.
Fear not, plenty of good counterfactual red meat is on the way, just be patient.
Brillstein V: Time Bandits
Chapter 9: Bernie Brillstein, Producer!
Excerpt from Where Did I Go Right? (or: You’re No One in Hollywood Unless Someone Wants You Dead), by Bernie Brillstein (with Cheryl Henson)
Some people like to talk about the art of the deal[1], but in reality, that’s all horseshit. A good agent, manager, producer, or creative artist works from their instincts. They take calculated risks. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t. You accept the wins with the losses and move forward. Jim did this without thinking about it. He knew and he trusted his instincts.
Take Time Bandits. Terry Gilliam, one of Jim’s Monty Python friends[2], brought the film to Disney in 1981 looking for an American distributor. We screened it at the big theater off Dopey Drive and the animators loved it[3]. Jim loved it[4]. Most of the Disney management, however, did not. They rejected the idea outright even after the employees literally petitioned to pick it up.
Jim believed in it, and I believed in Jim, so we pressed hard on it. We cited the petition. But the board wouldn’t budge. “It’s not in keeping with the Disney brand,” Card said with all the authority and finality of the Burning Bush. Jim was ready to storm out, but I grabbed his arm.
“You’re right,” I said, ignoring Jim’s glare. “So, you’ll make a new brand!”
The board erupted with cross-talk. Card got them to quiet down and we all started to speak in our turn, for or against. Ron Miller confessed he’d been considering just such an idea, a label for films that didn’t fit the Disney mold.
“It won’t work,” insisted Card. “Everyone will know Disney is behind it.”
“Did you know that Mel Brooks produced The Elephant Man?[5]” I said. The silence made it obvious that no, they didn’t.
After a closely contested vote, the film was accepted for distribution. Jim smiled to me. We had our film. Card said “Fine, you can have your confusing foreign film, and you can also accept the blame when it flops.”
Ron and Jim and I ultimately created the Fantasia Films label specifically as a place to distribute and showcase outside talent like Time Bandits that was just beyond the Disney image. Ron would go on to create Hyperion Pictures a couple of years afterwards, intended for original content that was more adult-oriented[6]. It was the start of a new expansion by the Disney company outside of its family friendly core, Time Bandits the first of many non-Disney-branded productions and distributions. We were starting to move forward.
Oh, and that “confusing foreign film” Time Bandits? We released it that November. It was a smash success that went on to gross over $42 million. We turned a hefty profit on a negligible investment.
It certainly did better than Condorman[7].
Jim’s level of respect went up at Disney, as did mine.
[1] This is not a political reference, I swear. Brillstein expressed similar sentiments towards the “art of the deal” concept more than once in his autobiography.
[2] While living in London during The Muppet Show Jim established friendships with all of the Pythons, whose bizarre, surreal comedy was clearly an influence on him. He later worked with Terry Jones on Labyrinth.
[3] True! According to former animator Steve Hulett in Mouse in Transition, “When an independent film called Time Bandits was screened in the big studio theater because its Brit producers were looking for a distributor, a bunch of us campaigned for the studio to pick it up. The movie was not only zesty, original, and funny, but had Sean Connery and half the Monty Python comedy troupe in it. Sadly, the studio passed on the project, and Avco Embassy Pictures snatched the film up, making a sizable fortune. (A $42 million gross against a $5 million budget, amazing for the early-’80s.)”
[4] He totally would. Fantasy, Pythonesque comedy, bizarre characters, stunning sets, time travel…all pure Jim.
[5] True! Comedy legend Mel Brooks was the silent force behind production of the dark, cerebral drama The Elephant Man, directed by surrealist producer/director David Lynch. Brooks deliberately kept his name off so as not to make people think that it was a comedy.
[6] In our timeline this idea became Touchstone Pictures. Miller originally wanted to call the new adult-oriented studio Hyperion after the street address of the original Disney Studios location. Tom Wilhite, who was fired from Disney after the Eisner/Wells takeover, would take the name for his own studio.
[7] A bomb in our timeline and this one alike. I actually saw this turd in the theaters, but only because they made it a double-feature with a re-release of Robin Hood, if I remember correctly, which was my favorite Disney cartoon at the time. I recall Condorman being really boring and a serious anticlimax after RH. In hindsight it was totally out of touch with contemporary audiences, even by Disney’s at-the-time standards. It was something more befitting of the Silver Age superheroes of the 1960s; real Adam West type stuff, only without the campy charm. Like Danger: Diabolik (1968), but worse. Today it’s remembered as a disaster and should best be used as snark bait for sarcastic robots.
Excerpt from Where Did I Go Right? (or: You’re No One in Hollywood Unless Someone Wants You Dead), by Bernie Brillstein (with Cheryl Henson)
Some people like to talk about the art of the deal[1], but in reality, that’s all horseshit. A good agent, manager, producer, or creative artist works from their instincts. They take calculated risks. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t. You accept the wins with the losses and move forward. Jim did this without thinking about it. He knew and he trusted his instincts.
Take Time Bandits. Terry Gilliam, one of Jim’s Monty Python friends[2], brought the film to Disney in 1981 looking for an American distributor. We screened it at the big theater off Dopey Drive and the animators loved it[3]. Jim loved it[4]. Most of the Disney management, however, did not. They rejected the idea outright even after the employees literally petitioned to pick it up.
Jim believed in it, and I believed in Jim, so we pressed hard on it. We cited the petition. But the board wouldn’t budge. “It’s not in keeping with the Disney brand,” Card said with all the authority and finality of the Burning Bush. Jim was ready to storm out, but I grabbed his arm.
“You’re right,” I said, ignoring Jim’s glare. “So, you’ll make a new brand!”
The board erupted with cross-talk. Card got them to quiet down and we all started to speak in our turn, for or against. Ron Miller confessed he’d been considering just such an idea, a label for films that didn’t fit the Disney mold.
“It won’t work,” insisted Card. “Everyone will know Disney is behind it.”
“Did you know that Mel Brooks produced The Elephant Man?[5]” I said. The silence made it obvious that no, they didn’t.
After a closely contested vote, the film was accepted for distribution. Jim smiled to me. We had our film. Card said “Fine, you can have your confusing foreign film, and you can also accept the blame when it flops.”
Ron and Jim and I ultimately created the Fantasia Films label specifically as a place to distribute and showcase outside talent like Time Bandits that was just beyond the Disney image. Ron would go on to create Hyperion Pictures a couple of years afterwards, intended for original content that was more adult-oriented[6]. It was the start of a new expansion by the Disney company outside of its family friendly core, Time Bandits the first of many non-Disney-branded productions and distributions. We were starting to move forward.
Oh, and that “confusing foreign film” Time Bandits? We released it that November. It was a smash success that went on to gross over $42 million. We turned a hefty profit on a negligible investment.
It certainly did better than Condorman[7].
Jim’s level of respect went up at Disney, as did mine.
[1] This is not a political reference, I swear. Brillstein expressed similar sentiments towards the “art of the deal” concept more than once in his autobiography.
[2] While living in London during The Muppet Show Jim established friendships with all of the Pythons, whose bizarre, surreal comedy was clearly an influence on him. He later worked with Terry Jones on Labyrinth.
[3] True! According to former animator Steve Hulett in Mouse in Transition, “When an independent film called Time Bandits was screened in the big studio theater because its Brit producers were looking for a distributor, a bunch of us campaigned for the studio to pick it up. The movie was not only zesty, original, and funny, but had Sean Connery and half the Monty Python comedy troupe in it. Sadly, the studio passed on the project, and Avco Embassy Pictures snatched the film up, making a sizable fortune. (A $42 million gross against a $5 million budget, amazing for the early-’80s.)”
[4] He totally would. Fantasy, Pythonesque comedy, bizarre characters, stunning sets, time travel…all pure Jim.
[5] True! Comedy legend Mel Brooks was the silent force behind production of the dark, cerebral drama The Elephant Man, directed by surrealist producer/director David Lynch. Brooks deliberately kept his name off so as not to make people think that it was a comedy.
[6] In our timeline this idea became Touchstone Pictures. Miller originally wanted to call the new adult-oriented studio Hyperion after the street address of the original Disney Studios location. Tom Wilhite, who was fired from Disney after the Eisner/Wells takeover, would take the name for his own studio.
[7] A bomb in our timeline and this one alike. I actually saw this turd in the theaters, but only because they made it a double-feature with a re-release of Robin Hood, if I remember correctly, which was my favorite Disney cartoon at the time. I recall Condorman being really boring and a serious anticlimax after RH. In hindsight it was totally out of touch with contemporary audiences, even by Disney’s at-the-time standards. It was something more befitting of the Silver Age superheroes of the 1960s; real Adam West type stuff, only without the campy charm. Like Danger: Diabolik (1968), but worse. Today it’s remembered as a disaster and should best be used as snark bait for sarcastic robots.
Speaking of "Fantasia", I hope that Jim's growing influence on the board and well-known love of animation results in a couple more installations of the Fantasia series to showcase brilliant animation alongside equally brilliant music ("As Walt Intended!") as a once-a-decade anthology series. The original Fantasia is still used in schools to teach kids basic musical theory, so a few more entries into the series won't be lamented.
If they can at least avoid the pointless and ultimately deleterious 'celebrity cameos' from Fantasia 2000 it'll be a marked improvement.
Your Bernie Brillstein impression really is fun to read.
I wish I knew enough about the real history to comment more, but your writing is great and the story very engaging.
fasquardon
I wish I knew enough about the real history to comment more, but your writing is great and the story very engaging.
fasquardon
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