A.H.C.: the most primitive spaceflight possible

Kaze

Banned
I shall break it down what is needed.

---Breathing.
An alchemist in theory could chemically extract oxygen from water, but doing so it would be highly dangerous for said alchemist. Of course why would he?


---Space Suit.

Leonardo Da Vinci and others proposed under-water breathing suits. Said suits could in theory be used as a space suit. In the real world - a good many astronauts were trained first in scuba in order to get used to weightlessness and their space suits.

---Crew modual.

You need a capsule or crew compartment that can survive the rigors of re-entry and be the right size. The closest analog that could be use would be bell-making - in theory, the Tsar Bell is the right size for an Apollo Capule and likely if it were not broken could survive re-entry.

---Fuel.

For every ton of cargo you need at least two to ten tons of fuel. Gunpowder could work - the problem with gunpowder is if you pile too much of it into one pile it will explode.
The other option is liquid fuel - before you say, wait - wait liquid fuel does not exist in the past... There is an option here - the early Goddard-style, V1, and V2 rockets used pure Kerosene - or the midevil equivalent would be Greek Fire.
Or there is the ASB way - make a Faustian deal with the devil.

---Mathematics.

You need to know the distance between the earth to the moon - where in you need Galileo, Kepplar, or Tycho Brahe who caculated the distance with uncanny accurcy.
You need to know the area underneath a curve - this is so that you can arc your rocket towards the moon and have the moon catch up to it. Such mathematics is hard - I would nominate Galileo and Kepler, then of course Isaac Newton whose calculus gave us the easy answer. My reasoning for the Galileo nomination is his little-known treatise on cannons, wherein he describes how to arc a cannon ball so that it can hit a swaying enemy ship, and he did this before the advent of Calculus. Kepler did the same considering the orbit of Mars compared that to the Earth and sun - doing this before the advent of calculus.
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so the short answer is sometime during the post-Renaissance or Enlightenment period would / could have all these things.
 
I shall break it down what is needed.

---Breathing.
An alchemist in theory could chemically extract oxygen from water, but doing so it would be highly dangerous for said alchemist. Of course why would he?


---Space Suit.

Leonardo Da Vinci and others proposed under-water breathing suits. Said suits could in theory be used as a space suit. In the real world - a good many astronauts were trained first in scuba in order to get used to weightlessness and their space suits.

---Crew modual.

You need a capsule or crew compartment that can survive the rigors of re-entry and be the right size. The closest analog that could be use would be bell-making - in theory, the Tsar Bell is the right size for an Apollo Capule and likely if it were not broken could survive re-entry.

---Fuel.

For every ton of cargo you need at least two to ten tons of fuel. Gunpowder could work - the problem with gunpowder is if you pile too much of it into one pile it will explode.
The other option is liquid fuel - before you say, wait - wait liquid fuel does not exist in the past... There is an option here - the early Goddard-style, V1, and V2 rockets used pure Kerosene - or the midevil equivalent would be Greek Fire.
Or there is the ASB way - make a Faustian deal with the devil.

---Mathematics.

You need to know the distance between the earth to the moon - where in you need Galileo, Kepplar, or Tycho Brahe who caculated the distance with uncanny accurcy.
You need to know the area underneath a curve - this is so that you can arc your rocket towards the moon and have the moon catch up to it. Such mathematics is hard - I would nominate Galileo and Kepler, then of course Isaac Newton whose calculus gave us the easy answer. My reasoning for the Galileo nomination is his little-known treatise on cannons, wherein he describes how to arc a cannon ball so that it can hit a swaying enemy ship, and he did this before the advent of Calculus. Kepler did the same considering the orbit of Mars compared that to the Earth and sun - doing this before the advent of calculus.
===============================================
so the short answer is sometime during the post-Renaissance or Enlightenment period would / could have all these things.
Why do you need most of that just to get to the von Karman line?
 

Kaze

Banned
My previous post is just shooting a rocket around the moon and back to the earth. Landing on the moon itself with such tech would be a one-way trip - it is impossible to get home without rockets to launch us off the moon - which means you are going to carry your explosive fuel along to the surface of the moon and hope it does not ignite during the first launch (the first launch is getting us there, the second launch would be getting us back).
 
So assuming that PoDs like "Sumeria goes through an Industrial Revolution" are not in the spirit of this, and we're looking for the least amount of technology you need to get a human being up to 100 kilometers and return him or her safely...

Basically the technologies I think we need are gunpowder (of course) steel (for the gun barrel and the capsule, I'm going with a "space-gun" design), an ability to measure fine tolerances (something like a micrometer), precision timekeeping (so something like Harrison's chronometer) and a parachute (so some basic ideas of aerodynamics). Here's my concept:

So we have a multistage gun barrel built into the side of a big mountain. The Alps or the Khingan range are good places to go with. The bottom of the gun is dug into the mountain so we can get a launch angle of 60 degrees or so. Each stage will fire at a timed moment after the last one, we need several stages to avoid killing our astronaut with the acceleration. The width of the barrel should be about a meter, only slightly larger than the largest cannons built historically.

Then we have our projectile, I imagine something a meter wide and about 2.5 meters long, to fit everything. The sides of our projectile are about 8 cm thick steel, with a small thick glass windowpane (probably like 12 cm thick, with the steel widening at that point to hold it). At the very top is a contained portion of water with pressure valves that will let steam escape when the pressure gets to 5 atm or so. Below this is a hatch that allows the top of the projectile to be disconnected and tossed away, and a location for our parachute all folded up, with hooks to attach its ropes to the inside of the projectile. Below this is our "crew quarters". Here our astronaut (we want someone short and small I think, a little person or a petite woman, though whether the launching society will go for this is debateable) is strapped in for launch, wearing a thickly padded suit of linens to absorb as much shock as possible. They are probably in a sitting position with their knees tucked upwards and their head down in a "crash position". The walls are padded with a layer of wet cotton, both as a heat sink and as a shock absorber. Carried with the astronaut is a sketchpad for observations and levers which can be pulled to release spring-loaded fins from the sides of the projectile (this will ensure it falls down bottom-first). Below this is a bottom portion much like the top, with water and pressure valves.

So we put the astronaut in the projectile (with hatch open a crack, probably, so air doesn't start getting short before launch). Then load the projectile in the space-gun. Then batten the hatch, brace for launch, and FIRE! The boiling-off water at the top acts as a heat sink to keep the projectile from burning up as it rushes through atmosphere, and in a couple minutes it's at 100 km. Our astronaut, assuming they survived and didn't pass out, will now activate the fins and start sketching observations before they hit atmo again in a couple minutes. Then hunker down for re-entry, hope the bottom heat sink avoids the projectile burning up, and once the ground is getting close enough hook the ropes of the parachute to the sides of the projectile. Then open the hatch, toss the parachute out, and pray... and if all goes well, land in some farmer's field having been the first human in space.

I could imagine 1700s France doing this if they weren't involved in wars for a long period and had a king given to megaprojects. It would certainly overawe the English to be able to send a man to the heavens :p
 
With "any pre-1899" POD? I'd pick "Library at Alexandria doesn't burn" & see how much scinece has advanced.

My second choice is, "Zhu Di doesn't call off overseas voyages" & Chinese exploration continues.
 
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to send a human being over 100km above the surface of the Earth, and return them safely to the ground, before December 31, 1899.

Krypton explodes 40 years earlier, and Jor-El is forced to launch "Kal-El" 40 years earlier, in 1899. Kal-El learns how to fly, boasts about it, and gets bullied by Lex Luthor's father. Not knowing his strength, Kal-El kicks Mr. Luthor into orbit. He feels sorry for him, however, so he goes up there and brings him back down safely. Yes, there is no air in space, but we know that in the movies Kal-El is able to drag Lois Lane into space without a suit -- and she comes down safely as well.

Doesn't sound that hard :)
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In all seriousness, is there something you can do with a hot air balloon? It would have to be pretty big though to be able to get up that high.
 
I have no idea how this would be possible but I tell you if it did happen we'd have jackasses claiming it was faked and the film footage of it was staged by Georges Melies!
 
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to send a human being over 100km above the surface of the Earth, and return them safely to the ground, before December 31, 1899.
Industrial revolution starts a hundred years earlier.

Then you have humans on the Moon, and maybe even on the Mars.
 
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In all seriousness, is there something you can do with a hot air balloon? It would have to be pretty big though to be able to get up that high.

Wiki says record highest hot air balloon flight "only" went up about 21.3 km. That's a bit over 1/5 of the way. So I don't think it's doable unfortunately :(
 
Why do you need most of that just to get to the von Karman line?
Because it all has to work together. If any part of it doesn't, you either don't make it, or don't come back alive. Without enough energy in the fuel, frex (or a large enough fuel fraction), you won't make orbit. (V-2s, frex, didn't.) If the spacecraft isn't tight, you die. (As witness Soyuz 11. :eek:)
 
Because it all has to work together. If any part of it doesn't, you either don't make it, or don't come back alive. Without enough energy in the fuel, frex (or a large enough fuel fraction), you won't make orbit. (V-2s, frex, didn't.) If the spacecraft isn't tight, you die. (As witness Soyuz 11. :eek:)
But the OP doesn't ask for anything remotely like orbit. Only what a V2 or Virgin Galactic could do.
 
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