A Guide, Resource, and Repository of Could-have-been Ideologies for your Alternate History

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by PachPachis, Feb 20, 2017.

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  1. Miranda Brawner Trans Woman

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    Maybe you'd be interested in my ideology of Mirrorism, which started out ad my attenpt to create a paradoxical "communist capitalism" although perhaps a more accurate description would be market socialism:

     
  2. Crying Your ideology is shit, SHIIIIIIIIT

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    Market socialism could be considered this (its (socialist) detractors certainly seem to think so), as could the 'mixed economy' of Social Democrats if you take a reductionist enough definition of communism. There's also the accusation of Soviet & Chinese communism being State Capitalism to consider.

    The term 'privatization' was first used (in English, anyway) to describe the Nazi's economic policies. That aside, the 'best' or 'straightest' example I can think of would be Pinochet, or maybe Fujimori.

    Well, there was that Alt-Right figurehead who tweeted about an 'international alliance of nationalists'.

    I mean, considering all the meddling they did in Latin America, this basically describes the US during their years of 'splendid isolation'.

    If you want to get technical about the history of liberalism, then this is what modern conservatism is (or is supposed to be, anyway). You had the original form of Liberalism (Classical Liberalism) emerge during the Enlightenment, which was internally split into two movements - Social Liberals and Liberal Conservatives. Then, once Liberalism as a whole had come into power/replaced the previous system, the Social Liberals and Liberal Conservatives just ended up becoming Liberals and Conservatives respectively. Or, at least that's what happened in the US, and since American terminology/culture more-or-less dominates the English-speaking internet... those are how we understand the terms.

    This is basically one theory about what fascism is/was, although the author called it Reactionary modernism.
     
  3. DrWalpurgis ha ha ha OH WELL

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    Given the way Integralism approaches 'separate but equal', it's possible you could get some kind of Integralist International...before it inevitably falls apart because everyone's 'natural borders' overlap.
     
  4. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, many integralist influenced regimes weren't very expansionist. Salazar's Estado Novo in Portugal, Austro-fascism, and National Catholicism under Franco in Spain lacked the expansionist instincts of Italian fascism.

    There was a kind of reactionary/catholic integralist international during the Cold War. Cite catholique, a group founded by a former Action Francaise member, was heavily involved in the OAS's attempts to assassinate Charles De Gaulle and prevent Algerian independence. After the OAS was banned in France, many of its members went to Latin America via Spain. Dirty war techniques like death flights were spread to Latin American anticommunist juntas by the veterans of the Algerian war.
     
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  5. DrWalpurgis ha ha ha OH WELL

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    Thanks for the correction!
    Cité Catholique seem like an...interesting group.
     
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  6. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    Nazism tends to get attract the most historical attention out of the fascist movements due to its massive body count relative to all the others, but it was also sui genesis relative to the other fascist movements. Analyzing nazism as a typical fascism is like treating a platypus as a typical mammal, even though it's technically in the same category. I find it easier to induce larger patterns and see family resemblances looking at the cluster of mediterranean reactionary movements, there's a lot of cross-pollination between Maurras, Salazar, etc.
     
  7. Crying Your ideology is shit, SHIIIIIIIIT

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    I wouldn't really say that they weren't expansionist, so much as they didn't have any easy paths for expansion, and they were (largely) smart enough to stay out of the Axis camp.

    I mean, Ethiopia was pretty much the only place left in Africa that a European power could expand into by that point, since everwhere else was already somebody else's colony, and Italy already had territory right next to it as well as a history of trying to conquer it. Italy was also right next to Albania - a small, 'weak' country that nobody else would be willing to go to war over, in contrast to Spain & Portugal whose only neighbours were each other and France.

    As for Austria... well, the Little Entente was primarily meant to counter any attempts at Hungarian revanchism but I'm sure they would have been willing to fight a revanchist Austria too. Beyond that, the Austro-fascist were in power for barely any time whatsoever before Nazi Germany annexed them, so they didn't exactly have many chances for expansionism.
     
  8. Max Sinister Retired Myriad Club Member Banned

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  9. KuboCaskett Resident Otaku

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    Can I suggest something like Islamic-Communism on this thread? I've been thinking about this lately given that the far right oppose both Islamism and Communism so I came up with something that combines the two (because they're supposedly better than the far-whatever-right), and yes there were a few precedents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_socialism
     
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  10. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    I guess it fits in the thread, but religious communism seems like a hard sell. Just because the alt-right dislikes them both doesn't make it any easier to combine dialectal materialism and divinely inspired law. South Yemen ran into a lot of awkward contradictions between ruling in the name of communism and governing a predominantly muslim society.

    Most world religions have some injunctions toward charity, but it's a stretch to say charity =post-enlightenment era socialism. This doesn't sound like a distinctive ideology so much as communist central planning - state atheism + opportunistic lip service to Islam.

    I'd be more concerned about the fusion of alt-right beliefs and islamism. When detention camps for gay people in Chechnya were in the news, there were a bunch alt-righters celebrating Ramzan Kadyrov and joking about 'white sharia"
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  11. Born in the USSA Well-Known Member

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    Would anyone be able to whip one up for Russian Nihilism?
     
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  12. Marisa Kiridifferent Maria Spiridonova fangirl

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    Ali Shariati, had he lived longer and become the leading figure of the Iranian Revolution instead of Khomeini, would lead to an Shi'ite socialist Iran. (@GoulashComrade might've known more about it)
    There is also Asghar Ali Engineer as a theorist of Islamic liberation theology.

    Tan Malaka, a preeminent early Indonesian Marxist and a devout Muslim(althought not a theologian like the former two mentioned), suggested an alliance between Communists and Pan-Islamism against the colonial powers, although it seems more of a temporary measure instead of a coherent "Islamo-communism".
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/malaka/1922-Panislamism.htm

    He did wrote a treatise attempting to reconcile Islam with materialism and dialectics.
    https://www.marxists.org/indonesia/archive/malaka/1948-Islam.htm (in Indonesian)
     
  13. Crying Your ideology is shit, SHIIIIIIIIT

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    I've been thinking about trying an article for Cosmism at some point... should probably focus on the Fasci Siciliana first, though
     
  14. Alexander the Average Anti-lion tamer

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    An interesting person to look into might be Mirsaid Sultan-Galiev. From what I can see his ideas were a mixture of proto-Third Worldism/Dependence Theory and synthesising pan-Islamism with the Bolshevik support for national self-determination. His views ended up clashing with the mainstream Bolsheviks, who saw him as too nationalistic and religious, and he was eventually expelled from the party and arrested in 1923. He was later released but after Lenin, who seemed to be quite fond of him, dies he had no more allies and remained a political outcast until he got killed in the Stalinist Purges. Could be more important in a Lenin lives longer timeline perhaps?

    Same with the Somali Democratic Republic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  15. Somebody-Someone Well-Known Member

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    Well, both Malê Rising and Moonlight in a Jar (also the future of LoRaG, if I am WMGing correctly) have SCIENCE ISLAM, and dialectical materialism is not necessary for communism. Actually, depending on your definition of communism, Malê Rising does have islamic communism.
     
  16. Miranda Brawner Trans Woman

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    That does sound fascinating.
     
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  17. Das Amerikan Undead LikenPanzer General

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    Would Baathism make for a good entry?
     
  18. BigBlueBox Well-Known Member

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    This thread is supposed to be for ideologies that never came into power, so if you are doing Ba’athism you should focus on non-OTL variants of Ba’athism, like what Salah Jadid would have implemented without the Corrective Movement.
     
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  19. Threadmarks: Objectivism - Gigel the Iron Chicken

    Gigel the Iron Chicken Member

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    Alright, enough dilly-dallying.

    Objectivism
    9ed11b511796f5ea3866c355d84fabd4-ayn-rand-atlas-shrugged.jpg
    The Cruella cigarette isn’t doing you any favours...

    What it is: A rather fascinating set of beliefs created by Russian emigré to the USA Ayn Rand (born Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum), Objectivism is as much a political ideology as it is an entire philosophical system. Rand took the daunting task of uniting all of philosophy, creating in the process a way of thinking characterized by a struggle for rationality and truth. Aristotle was her biggest influence and model. Her world-view is characterized by objectivity, rationality, atheism, unbridled capitalism, progress, rational self-interest, and a belief in the endless potential of humanity. While Rand was not an anarchist, her ideas naturally lead to a libertarian, “night watchman” state with Laissez-Faire capitalism.

    An Objectivist state would operate quite similarly to a Minarchist one. The main difference is mostly in the way the members of society see themselves. Like Minarchism, a free market is considered paramount for a truly free society, with private property rights being considered extremely important. While Minarchism is broad, there are a few precepts which make Objectivism distinct, like atheism (religion is considered oppressive; Rand even saw capitalism as incompatible with it), a fascination with modernity and human progress, and an emphasis on truth, rationality, and objectivity as the only tools through which we can properly thrive in this world. This makes Objectivism heavily cultural and philosophical as well as political in nature.

    Rand’s work was continued by her protégé, Leonard Peikoff. She has grown somewhat influential in some corners of our real world (mostly the USA, where a few prominent politicians have cited her as an influence) and the Internet. While considered a fringe belief in libertarian and right-wing circles, the bad reputation the ideology has gotten as an excuse for people to not care about others is somewhat unfair and a result of tons of second-hand criticism. There are three main reasons for this:

    1. Completely understanding Rand’s philosophy requires reading not only her non-fiction (“The Virtue of Selfishness” etc.), but also her fiction (“The Fountainhead”, “Atlas Shrugged” etc.). Her books contain characters which represent different world-views, and Rand uses them to advocate for her beliefs. It is easy to conflate Rand’s talent as a fiction writer with the quality of her ideology, not to mention that this reliance on fiction makes her unappealing to academics. Some find these books to be morally questionable, with Rand’s virtuous humans committing acts which many find repugnant or indefensible (the protagonist of “The Fountainhead”, Howard Roark, is, for instance, an arsonist). The fact that her books are often doorstoppers and/or poorly edited doesn’t help either.

    2. Rand uses some very odd terminology. She used “selfishness” when she meant “rational self-interest”, and “altruism” when she meant “sacrifice for a greater goal”. Her advocacy for the former and demonization of the latter are perfectly fine views which can be debated when you know what she means. However, superficially, it looks like Rand wanted everyone to be uncaring and egotistical, which is definitely not the case. Humans could definitely display charity in her society.

    3. It is always necessary to separate the person from the argument. Unfortunately, Rand’s life is characterized by drama. Near its’ end, a proper cult had been created around her ideas. The fact that it was centered on truth and rationality made no difference. This has been covered extensively in the book “The Ayn Rand Cult” by Jeff Walker. Love affairs which I will not detail have also contributed to her movement’s bad reputation. Calling her entire philosophy cultish is, however, unfair.

    To me, Objectivism is fascinating and quite unique. It has parallels with Stirner’s Egoism, however he considered money and capitalism to be “spooks”, unlike Rand. I think that Objectivism deserves a fair shake, and lumping it together with movements who are outright genocidal or delusional is intellectually lazy and unkind. Nevertheless, “The Fountainhead” is watching me from my shelf. I have to get around to reading it someday...

    1200px-Objectivist1.jpg

    As individualist good guys
    : The world is full of Howard Roarks and John Galts. A society built upon the personal freedom of man, unshackled by a strong, oppressive state or religion. Property rights are respected fully, because “the freer the market, the freer the people”. Artists and scientists, unbound by outdated societal ideas, advance humanity at break-neck speeds, producing beautiful, challenging art, and rapid technological and scientific progress, respectively. Ultimate freedom of expression is present; even commies are allowed! Enterprising figures are the driving force in society, as everyone talented and ambitious enough can become something greater, dragging everyone forward towards a bright future (“The Great Chain”). A small state exists, there to protect individual and property rights and to discourage freeloading.

    As collectivist good guys: Voluntary association has meant that people could contribute to things they truly believe in and want to succeed, leading to the creation of impressive works of art and architecture, and to collaborative efforts in science. Unbridled by heavy taxes or a sense of guilt, people’s charity towards the disenfranchised has lead to a society where everyone is kind and helps others get up and be productive. People are kinder and always respectful to their fellow sirs and madams. Without the forced altruism of the state, everyone can focus on helping the community in their own way. Those at the top help those at the bottom, as that is the best strategy for having a good reputation and being generally liked. Workers are happy, and their interests, too, are protected by the state.

    As neutrals: A general income inequality looms over everything, although every nation has to deal with that to a certain extent. State sponsored atheism has drawn the ire of international human rights organizations, so religious freedom is begrudgingly tolerated. Industrialists and scientist have moved society forward, both in terms of general wealth and technological progress, however not that much of them “trickle down”, as it were. In general, not that different from an average Westernized country, it’s just that the few people who comprise the state have a few wacky ideas who occasionally get to the masses.

    As individualist villains: Chaos. Without a strong police force, crime and general immorality is rampant. Drugs, poverty, and shady companies are everywhere. Science has progressed tremendously, not held back by silly things like “morality” and “common sense”. The artists are some of the most deranged and sick people you have ever seen, running around freely. The state is in shambles and can’t help the workers and the poor, feverishly exploited by the bourgeois at the top, a steadily shrinking group of amoral bastards with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. The poor are seen as nothing but rats and scum, and no one will care if you kill them on the streets. The fact that the wide-spread ideas of the state encourage everyone to be selfish, egotistical, uncaring arseholes doesn’t help either. (For more info, see: Bioshock 1.)

    As collectivist villains: The state, needing to enforce its’ ideas, has steadily grown. Those at its’ head have formed a bizarre cult centered around “rationality” and “truth” and their ideological mother, Ayn Rand. In order to prevent people from being “enslaved by religion”, state atheism is strongly enforced. Bibles and other holy books and ritual paraphernalia are banned. A thriving black market has formed to fill in the supply. Extreme individualism has been so destructive that people now flock to whatever figure promises community and belonging (see: Bioshock 2). Weird cults centered on self-sacrifice and brainwashing have popped up everywhere, and the state is now forced to expand its’ military to deal with them, betraying the soul of their entire worldview. As weird pseudo-Stalinism takes form, Rand’s ghost cries.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Criticism is very much appreciated and wanted, as this is the first proper thing I have written for this site. I am very happy to be a part of this, as this thread is my favourite on the entire forum!

    I have used previous discussions (especially the excellent post by @Skallagrim), Mickael Schermer’s “Unlikeliest cult in history” and the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on Ayn Rand as sources.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  20. Utgard96 basically a load of twaddle about freedom

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    Impressed that you managed to spin Objectivism into collectivist good guys.
     
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