A Green And Pleasant Land

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Jun 28, 2019.

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  1. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Given that Margaret's father is sonless a)he will need a new wife soon; b) he will marry his daughter to somebody that helps to secure the succession.
    A new wife for King of Norway is going to be an important matter pretty soon.
     
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  2. Valena Well-Known Member

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    TTL Eric II is unlikely to marry Isabel Bruce, a mere daughter of Earl. In fact, instead of marrying his daughter to England, he may look to England as a source of new wife for himself.
     
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  3. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    One of Edward I's daughers then?
     
  4. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    Though with French marriage for Joan of Acre and Margaret being betrothed pre-PoD, the only available one would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Woodstock
    Unless Margaret's betrothal is cancelled in favor of more prestigious one (but then, Margaret's groom would be demanding compensation (Mary?)).
     
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  5. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Hmm, Mary could be interesting, I imagine Eleanor would be in favour of the marriage rather than sending her daughter off to be a nun
     
  6. FriendlyGhost Haunting history for 45+ yrs

    I'd be fascinated to see how Ireland will develop. OTL there was the Scottish expedition under Edward Bruce in 1315, which really only came about because some of the Irish saw the chance to enlist Scottish help against the English 'Lordship of Ireland.' Could Ireland become a point of contention between the two countries, or could we see the Anglo-Irish lords enlist Scottish help against the Irish 'rebels' (as they see them)? With Scotland still in control of Mann, the Irish Sea is more a Scottish loch than an English lake.
    I'm also interested in the future of the Northern Isles. They're still Norwegian at this point, though the Jarl of Orkney also owes allegiance to the King of Scots as Earl of Caithness, so the islands are sort of a half-way house between being Scottish and being Norwegian. Could there be an earlier marriage analogous to that of Margaret of Norway to James III, with the islands as security for the dowry?
     
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  7. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Oh I like that last part, I can see either Alexander IV or his son Alexander V potentially pushing for it when the time comes, especially if one avoids the Kalmar Union.

    And hmm, if the Scottish Lords and the Scottish King maintain their lands in England I could definitely see this being a potential
     
  8. FriendlyGhost Haunting history for 45+ yrs

    That statement woke up a long-dormant brain-cell. I remember reading, many years ago (I can't remember at all what the book was) that a king of England was nearly granted lands in Scotland in exchange for something (maybe part of the negotiations about Cumbria/Westmorland in David's time? I really can't remember). Anyway, if relations remain good, could we see ITTL a grant of land in Scotland by the King of Scots to the King of England? Or to one of the barons of England who subsequently forfeits his lands to the crown, thus making the lands in Scotland held by the English King? That would make things interesting, as the King of England would then be required to give fealty to the King of Scots...
    (what was that I saw flying past? a huge butterfly laughing hysterically??)
     
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  9. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Oh boy, now I'm having rampant ideas in my head aha.
     
  10. Ivan Lupo Well-Known Member

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    Mary was already promised to the Church and I believe was already in the process of shortly being cloistered around this time in OTL. I'm not sure how much money or how many favors and indulgences it would cost someone to retract their vows to the holy orders, but there has been precedent for it, if not in England. I believe Aragon once had a monk have to take the throne because he was the very last eligible heir and had received dispensation from the Pope to actually take the throne, marry, and produce an heir, after which he was allowed to retake his vows and enter the monastery once more. Matter of fact, it was this guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramiro_II_of_Aragon

    His daughter was Petronilla, who was immediately engaged to Ramon Berenguer, the Count of Barcelona, and that marriage is the reason why the Catalan counties were joined in union with Aragon. However, this was an extraordinary circumstance, so for something as relatively trivial as marrying a daughter in the process of taking her vows to someone without any real need to do so would need some serious finessing. Thankfully, Edward and Eleanor were both highly-esteemed by the church and were both capable of leaning on the right people to make things happen. I actually think if King Eric of Norway would take an English wife, it would be Mary's sister Elizabeth of Rhuddlan.
     
  11. Valena Well-Known Member

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    I actually thought more about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_England,_Duchess_of_Brabant, replacing her childhood betrothal with higher bid.
    Mary will stay a nun, and Elizabeth of Rhuddlan would be offered to Brabant. Reason - Eric needs a wife of childbearing age ASAP, and is not willing to wait until 1298 which is the earliest Elizabeth can produce a heir without risk to her health.
     
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  12. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Looiking at the wiki it seems she wasn't dedicated until 1285, I suppose I could butterfly that or perhaps have Elizabeth be the candidate, though Elizabeth isn't that much older than Margaret the Maid, so there would be quite a bit of time before she could marry Eric, and he did die in 1299
     
  13. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Hmm, Margaret could work, and I can see her being slightly happier with Eric than she was with John
     
  14. Valena Well-Known Member

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    That's why I said cancelling the Brabant betrothal - Margaret is the only one of age and is not a nun.
     
  15. Valena Well-Known Member

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    She'll be annointed Queen, and mother of heir to the throne, not a Duchess who has to tolerate countless bastards of her husband.
    Given how long lived Margaret was OTL, I can see her as Queen Regent of Norway.
     
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  16. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Agreed.
    And definitely, and perhaps being able to see off any challenges from her husband's brother Haakon for the throne
     
  17. Threadmarks: Chapter 13: Rudolf Of The Purple

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 13: Rudolf of the Purple



    September, 1286


    Rudolf blinked and pushed back a sigh. He was old, and he felt it in his bones. No longer could he move with the pace and speed he had once called his own. Now all that was left to him was his mind. He left it to his sons to handle the military activities. Though increasingly he was beginning to think that was why nothing was getting done. He cleared his throat, took a sip of wine and then spoke.

    “What word has come from the lands under danger?” He had wanted this situation resolved some six years ago, but it had not happened. He did not know if it ever would.

    “Sire,” that was his eldest son Albert, Duke of Austria and Styria and his hope for the dynasty. “Bavaria continues to face tensions between various factions alongside Franconia and Savoy remains a risk. The Duke of Bavaria has asked for aid, stating that he fears his brother means to do him harm.”

    Perhaps it was a sign of his age, but Rudolf didn’t know which Duke his son was speaking about and asked him as such. “Which one?”

    “Duke Henry, Sire.” Albert responded. “He fears the invasion from his brother Duke Louis. He believes Louis wishes to unite the two Dukedoms into one.”

    Rudolf sighed, those damned Wittelsbach’s and their ambition. “And is there any truth to this matter?” Rudolf asked.

    “From what I have been able to find out, yes. Duke Louis wants to bring the two Dukedoms together, but he wants to do it through marriage.” Albert responded.

    “Marriage? Presumably by his son and one of his brother’s daughters?” Rudolf surmised.

    “Yes, Sire.” Albert responded. “And he is hoping that he can get Your Majesty’s support to petition His Holiness for this marriage. He wishes for a dispensation.”

    Rudolf thought on this. His relations with the current Pope were not as good as what they had been with this man’s predecessor. “What this he saying he shall offer in return?”

    “He says he will support you in any claim you make for the Imperial Crown, and will speak with his fellow electors.” Albert said.

    Rudolf considered this. He wanted the Imperial title, he wanted to end the struggle and chaos that had gripped the Empire since the last Hohenstaufen had died, but he sensed there was a double-edged sword there. “What do you think?” He asked his son. “Do you believe he is being genuine?”

    “I do not know, Sire. On the one hand, he is tied to us through marriage, but on the other hand, he is a Wittelsbach and they are notoriously ambitious. He could just be saying what he thinks we wish to hear.” Albert responded.

    Rudolf pondered this and then said. “Tell him that if he can guarantee his support and his friends support in the next Imperial election, I shall consider supporting him. But he must present their support before the end of the year.” He looked at his second son and namesake Rudolf. “Rudolf, you shall venture to Rome, meet with our friends there, and inform them that we wish to get His Holiness’ blessing for an election.”

    “Yes, Sire.” Both his sons replied.

    “Dismissed.” Rudolf said. He watched as they both got up, bowed and then left. Once they were gone he looked at his hands and sighed, the skin was beginning to dry again and his eyes were hurting. He did not have long.
     
  18. Ivan Lupo Well-Known Member

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    Finally able to make a comment here, just been so busy at work all day.

    This is an interesting turn of events here, as it was a tumultuous time in the HRE around this period. I personally wouldn't mind seeing the Habsburgs have some real competition for the long term.
     
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  19. Threadmarks: Chapter 14: A Scheme At Garioch

    VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Chapter 14: A Scheme At Gairoch



    December, 1286


    Alexander, Prince of Scotland and Earl of Gairoch sat next to his heavily pregnant wife Sancha, and watched the scenes unfolding before him. They’d invited several notables from around the area and even the Earls of Mar and Buchan to their home in Gairoch Castle, for a festive meal before the grand celebrations in Stirling. It hadn’t snowed yet this year, which was a relief. Alexander did not want to lose his wife or his children. Already there were two children for him and his wife, a son Alexander, named Lord of Mann by the King, and a daughter Margaret named after Alexander’s mother. Sancha was with child once more, and Alexander was both happy and a bit worried about that. He knew the problems of pregnancy well now. Sancha had been in labour for twelve hours with Margaret. He blinked as the Earl of Buchan came and sat down next to him.

    Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan was a big man, he towered over most people, with his fiery red hair and his ruddy complexion he looked like a giant out of some sort of story. “My Prince.” The man said.

    “Lord Buchan.” Alexander said in acknowledgement.

    “Quite the festivities you have arranged for us today I must say, my Prince.” Comyn said. “I must admit I was quite surprised to receive an invitation.”

    Alexander knew why the man was saying that, but he feigned surprise. “And why is that, my lord? You are one of our closest allies and friends, why would we not invite you?”

    Buchan said nothing to that, instead he asked. “I know that there were some complaints from your side of the court over the appointment of Bruce’s man to the King’s guard, and for that I thank you. It is important we maintain a balance.”

    Alexander nodded. “Naturally.” He did not say that he would not have gone for a Comyn man either. Instead he would have chosen one of the Hamiltons to sit in the guard of the King, but his father had overridden him.

    “Now, there was something I wished to speak with you about, that I fear might not yet get to the King’s attention.” Comyn said.

    Alexander said nothing, he merely waited, and hoped it would not be something to do with the Bruces. Eventually Comyn spoke. “I have received word from my daughter Marjorie that the Lord of Lauderdale came to visit her and her husband some nights ago and demanded their help.”

    Alexander raised an eyebrow, the Lord of Lauderdale was the sort of man who cautionary tales were told of to little children. Indeed, the whole family was of that sort. “What did he want?”

    “He wanted their assistance in handling one of his debtors.” Comyn said.

    Alexander repressed a snort. “And I trust your daughter and her husband told him that such a thing would break the law. No lord should ask an Earl for help with their debts.” That had been something his great-grandsire had introduced to deal with the local chieftains some years ago.

    “Of course, my prince.” Comyn replied. “But it was who the debt collector was that prompted my daughter to write to me.”

    Alexander raised an eyebrow. “And who was the debt collector?”

    “The Lord of Liddesdale, my Prince.” Comyn replied.

    “Liddesdale?” Alexander asked surprised. Liddesdale was a small lordship on the border, not particularly wealthy, but a proud family. “How have they been able to afford lending money to someone who owns more land and money than them?” He asked.

    “Exactly. I think there might be more to this.” Comyn replied. “We all know that Liddesdale’s father was known for his ties with the Jews, perhaps his son has done something similar.”

    Alexander blanched a little at that. It sounded so sinister, but the Jewish people he had met had been nothing but friendly and kind. Indeed, two of them had helped provide comfort to Sancha during her labour and had been better at suggesting how she could ease the pain than the doctor Alexander had had. “Perhaps, or perhaps he has been using his words to con people out of money.”

    Comyn nodded. “Perhaps. I do think it is the right thing to investigate, though, my Prince.”

    Alexander nodded. “Agreed. I shall investigate this myself. Leave the letter your daughter wrote with my steward and I shall take the matter from there.”

    “Yes, my Prince.” Comyn said, he rose, bowed, straightened and then walked away to go and speak with someone else.

    Once he left, Sancha turned to him and asked in Portuguese. “What was that about?”

    Alexander took his wife’s hand and said. “Someone has been breaking the law, and I need to see who it is.”

    Sancha nodded. “Of course.” She knew he’d tell her more about it later that evening.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  20. perdu42 Well-Known Member

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    Liddesdale - is that a Douglas holding at this time?

    Michaelmas falls on 29 September.
     
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