A greater Russia

Hello I'm new here but have been observing for a long time. any way I was wondering if with some kind of pod we could get a more powerful Russia. I don't mean territorially, just a stronger Russia. From what I have read it has a lot of potential it's natural resources and large farm land. Could we get a US anolgy with eastern expansion of settlers or get a massive industrial base much earlier? Maybe get a warm water port? I just thought it would be cool to see a more powerful Russia.
 
The last century has been astonishingly unkind to Russia (the causes can certainly be traced into the 19th C, but by far the most and worst could still have been averted if WW1 had turned out differently). A much stronger Russia (which of necessity means a bigger one: a strong Russia is a lucky Russia has Ukraine) is certainly possible.

The eastern movement has been a trend in Russian history. A particularly strong US analogy would requirre major changes to society back well before Peter the Great, but certainly Siberia really started to fill up (well, I say "fill": this is Siberia we're talking about) through peasant colonisation after Stolypin's reforms.

As for an earlier industrial base, harder. Russia's industrial revolution started kicking in the 1880s, which was enough to put them behind everyone else in Europe (catching up such that Germany really felt it in 1916 when the Russians fine-tuned their war economy with the completion of important strategic railways and the upping of arms production) but not so very far behind the beginning of the industrial era.

I shalln't go pre-Petrine, when my handle on Russian history starts to loosen a lot faster, but the 18th C Russian state did have a pretty decent industrial base by the standards of the time, certainly more modern than some (like its neighbour, the PLC), this being a time before mass industrial capitalism.

A differant development from Alexandrine times onward (or before, in the 18th C, of course) could result in the conditions that made possible the industrial boom that began in 1885 earlier: stability in Europe and at the straits, a ready supplier of capital such as France and Belgium provided, serfdom abolished and continuing reforms of how rural society functioned. But hiking everything back by 20 years would be pretty optimistic.

However, several calamities in Russian history can be very easily averted.

No WW2 (cheap PoD: blow up Hitler, save Stresemann, yayz!) already does a huge amount. The sheer cost of the war in material, money, and above all men's lives was hard to fathom. A USSR which is never invaded will have a much larger resources base, a better demographic position for the Russians, no Warsaw Pact to hold it back and no overly ambitious Cold War against America. With the right post-Stalin developments, it could be with us today as a polity vaguely resembling modern China. That's an optimistic scenario, but both plausible and a much stronger Russia.

But you can go back earlier. The First World War and Russian Civil War also had massive consequences for the country's population and resource base, not to mention shaving off the edges and reversing a great deal of Russification. In 1914, Minsk and Kiev were Russian cities.

A Russia which, to be optimistic yet again, avoids WW1, liberalises, raises the Jews to a position of loyal integration, and so on would be a very major power in the world. There's a lot that can go wrong on the way, but it could all go right.
 
[shameless advertisement]I once wrote a TL called the Twin Eagles and the Lion. It featured a German-Russian-Italian Triple Alliance (later joined by the US due to butterflies). They won an alternate WW I against France, Austria-Hungary, Britain, the Ottoman Empire and Japan (which switched sides before the end). Russia ends up much more modern, powerful and influential with Britain prostrate and the Middle East and the Bosporus at its feet. Due to German influence they slowly evolve from an autocratic monarchy to a Wilhelmine pseudo-constitutional monarchy and eventually a fully constitutional monarchy after TTL's WW II. They also get free reign in the Balkans with Romania, Serbia and Bulgaria as clients (Italy gets Greece and newly independent Croatia.[/shameless advertisement :D]

It might be what you're looking for. It also features a Franco-Spanish personal union and later a communist France :D.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119376
 
Hello I'm new here but have been observing for a long time. any way I was wondering if with some kind of pod we could get a more powerful Russia. I don't mean territorially, just a stronger Russia. From what I have read it has a lot of potential it's natural resources and large farm land. Could we get a US anolgy with eastern expansion of settlers or get a massive industrial base much earlier? Maybe get a warm water port? I just thought it would be cool to see a more powerful Russia.

How much more powerful do you want? And how recognizable do you want this *Russia to be?
 
How much more powerful do you want? And how recognizable do you want this *Russia to be?

Russia is Russia. You'd have to go back to Kievan Rus to change that: although it can of course end up massively differant, it's "recognisable" in that it's Russia.
 
Russia is Russia. You'd have to go back to Kievan Rus to change that: although it can of course end up massively differant, it's "recognisable" in that it's Russia.

I wasn't saying that *Russia would stop being Russia. Just that it could be massively different, on which we seem to agree. Perhaps I was unclear?
 
Thanks for tha answers, especially Commies indepth answer. I do have another question though. What is the most likey way Russia could gain a permanet Warm water port and its affects? I would guess somehow get constaniople or control the baltic well enough. Im have a TL rattleing around in my head and im studying Russia right now. Russia with a early warm water port would greatly help. My only concern is that with a earlier stable Russia and all it si might change fundemtally. I Havnt decided if i want an early Russia with a port or if i want to wait so i can keep Russia more like todays culture wise. Anyway I would love it if someones can tell me various ways they could get a warm water port Pre-WWI.:D
 
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Eurofed

Banned
As for some shameless advertisement, in my own "United States of the Americas", Russia has been so far (TL development is currently at 1856, on the onset of the American Civil War), rather more successful than IOTL, thanks to a Congress of Vienna second PoD which left the Eastern Alliance of Russia, Prussia (Greater Germany since the early 1830s) and Murattian Naples (Italy since the early 1830s) the hegemon of Europe. All three powers have undergone an evolution towards moderate liberalism, with some speed bumps, since the 1820s. Russia controls all of 1807 Poland, Galicia, Moldavia, Wallachia, Bulgaria, Western Thrace, Vardar Macedonia, Georgia, all Armenia (including OTL Turkish stuff), all Azerbajian (including OTL Persian stuff). The Habsburg Empire was wiped off the map, Hungary-Croatia, Bosnia-Serbia, and Greece-Crete are cowed vassals of the Alliance. The Straits are a free zone under the control of the five Great Powers. The rump Ottoman empire is teetering on the brink of collapse, and the Anglo-French-Spanish alliance is hard-pressed to contain the Eastern behemoth.
 
Probably the best opportunity is for Russia to win the Russo-Japanese War. At that time they were occupying Manchuria, leasing Port Arthur, and very influential in Korea. A defeat of Japan would cement these, and if China does still end up in civil war, place Russia in a perfect position to annex these territories.

By 1904 Russia had occupied most of what might be considered available conquests including the Caucasus, Bessarabia, Poland, Finland and Central Asia, all during the previous century.

Room for expansion now comes at the expense of either
- China
- Britain
- the Ottoman Empire

Now, a Russia victorious in 1904 is going to be in a better situation for any Great War that might break out. Talk of military reforms etc in the wake of the OTL defeat are all very well, but didn't exactly prevent defeat such as Tannenberg and Masurian Lakes in 1914.

The state as an instutition is going to be stronger for having won, Russian prestiige will be stronger too

You probably need a different starting point for the First World War since a strong Russia in 1908 doesn't allow the Austrian annexation of Bosnia-Hercegovina, so the chaiin of events is going to be different

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I think if Rezanov had survived then I think we could see Russia gaining more of the Pacific Northwest or at least hold on to Alaska.
 
The last thing Russia needs is mo eterritory and more ethnic groups who need to be controlled or 'russified'. The fact is that Russia in the 19th and 20th centuries was plagued by nationalist and leftist uprisings. What Russia needs isn't yet more peasants but richer peasants.
In the early 19th century Russia was on the way to becoming THE Great Power- her armies occupied large parts of Eastern Europe (cossacks had rided to the outskirts of Paris) and her industrial base was growing rapidly. However, political indecisiveness and poor administration slowed these developements down. To rectify were need one of twothings:

1. A good Tsar. Alexander went some of the way freeing the serfs, however the fact is that these measured didn't work. What was needed was something like Stolypin's reforms about 60 years earlier. This would mean that they would be more ofa long-lasting growth scheme rather than a last-ditch attempt to keep the peasants happy.

2. There was a large intellectual class in Russia that was enlightened and politically motivated. They weren't politically active, however, because of the Tsar's autocracy. Therefore if the Duma was opened earlier (say 1850 or so) then we'd eventually see movements like the Tolstoyists, with their massive support, getting some land etc. reform done.

Those are my suggestions. Perhaps a meshing of the two could be instituted. However, in an autocracy like Russia, anything can happen depending on the Tsar.
 
I'd broadly agree with SF: Russia reached the near limits of its expansion OTL, and a good place for changes in society is to prevent the ossification under NI and in the latter part of AI's reign and preserve the dynamism of the 18th C into the 19th.
 
If Russia did liberalize a little what would be the effects? espicially in Europe? I could see Russia being a mucher bigger threat to Europe being more liberal and modernizing more broadly
 
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