A Greater Rhomania: Plausibilty of Union between Constantinople and Kiev

Another plausibilty check:

I have been reading a number of works (by Dimitri Obolensky and Alexander Kazadhan) concerning relations between the Principality of Kiev and the Macadeonian/Komnenian dynasties of the ERE. Lets say we have another scenario similar to that of Issac's Empire. The Basileus of Constantinople dominates the Balkans, Anatolia and Caucasus and establishes strong dynastic and diplomatic ties with the Rus of Kiev. Could the territories of the southern Rus principalities one day enter into a personal union with the Rhomanians? I'm interested in doing a TL in with a stronger Constantinople absorbs Kiev over time and creates a more powerful orthodox "bloc" by the time of the Mongols arrival in the mid 13th century. Obviously my POD would be pre Manizkert ala the aforementioned timeline by the immortal BG!

Perhaps a Komnenoi ruler of Constantinople who appoints a "Megas Doux" of Kiev to fight the Cumans? The collision betwen this Empire and the Mongols would be interesting.

I think this could lead to closer ties between the Rhomanians and Novgorod/Suzdal as well...although they would be far too distant to be directly ruled by the Basileus.
 
I had a similar plan in mind for this one, but it involves a 5th century AD PoD where Attila is raised in the Byzantine court as a political hostage and would eventually become the Eastern Roman Emperor. Eventually, the Rhomanoi state would demark its border at the Dnieper and many other rivers with a larger Finno-Ugric state.
 
Exactly, my goal was to have the Mongols be forced to fight both the Mamaluks of Egypt/Syria and the Byzantines in Anatolia/Kievan Rus at the same time in the 1250s thru 1320s. The Rus princepalities of Halych, Kiev, Cherginov, Turov and Pereyaslavl would be bound to the Eastern Empire by dynastic and economic relations...thus the Orthodox Oikumene would be more united than it was OTL, and centered around the Black Sea. Arpad Hungary, though remaining Catholic, would have stronger Orthodox influences during the 12th and 13th centuries.

Again, this would require an Issac's Empire path for "Byzantium" in which Manzikert is reversed and the Komenoi dynasty maintains a strong hold over Anatolia and Armenia. The main difference in my TL would be that the 12th century emperors would expand north instead of south (towards Jerusalem) and west (beyond S. Italy). I just can't see a Rhomanian state being able to hold Palestine and Egypt due to the dominance of Islam in the region and the reluctance of past emperors to rule over such large non-Christian populations.

Ryazan, Vladamir Suzdal, Alania and Georgia would all still be ravaged by Mongol invasions though.
 
There was another idea that I had though, but it involves three Rus' states established after a PoD during the fratricidal wars between Yaropolk, Vladimir and Oleg. From what I can give out, Yaropolk would center his realm in Novgorod while embracing Catholicism, Oleg Svyatoslavich could take control of Kiev while Vladimir could have the choices of conversion to Nestorian Christianity or Islam. Or Svyatoslav survives longer than usual, but long enough to expand and divide his lands upon his death to his sons.
 
Exactly, my goal was to have the Mongols be forced to fight both the Mamaluks of Egypt/Syria and the Byzantines in Anatolia/Kievan Rus at the same time in the 1250s thru 1320s. The Rus princepalities of Halych, Kiev, Cherginov, Turov and Pereyaslavl would be bound to the Eastern Empire by dynastic and economic relations...thus the Orthodox Oikumene would be more united than it was OTL, and centered around the Black Sea. Arpad Hungary, though remaining Catholic, would have stronger Orthodox influences during the 12th and 13th centuries.

Again, this would require an Issac's Empire path for "Byzantium" in which Manzikert is reversed and the Komenoi dynasty maintains a strong hold over Anatolia and Armenia. The main difference in my TL would be that the 12th century emperors would expand north instead of south (towards Jerusalem) and west (beyond S. Italy). I just can't see a Rhomanian state being able to hold Palestine and Egypt due to the dominance of Islam in the region and the reluctance of past emperors to rule over such large non-Christian populations.

Ryazan, Vladamir Suzdal, Alania and Georgia would all still be ravaged by Mongol invasions though.

The plan may be feasable at the time of the Macedonian dynasty(due to the personality and effectiveness of its emperors and the financial strength and prosperity of Byzantium,the time Kiev became Greek Orthodox)
but with the Mongols is something that would spoil the broth:the presence of Subodai;rather make him enter diplomatic relations with Byzantium and instead of Kiev the Mongols can face the northern Russian principalities of Moscow Novgorod Pscov etc and invade Poland,Hungary Moldova etc until the Danube(or further if you like,destroy those countries(as they did) and then retreat and turn south west against Middle East;Now that would be very interesting.It will open a can of worms...and make a reversal of history:Ottomans disappear,two friendly powers command the Middle East and the Byzantines move in the Indian Ocean earlier.North you have e backward Russia and Kiev etc plus Georgia united with Constantinople...
I think your concept has fascinating opportunities...
 
Indeed the idea would be for the Empire by say...1330 to include Georgia, Serbia, Armenia and the southernmost Rus Principalities (which are weak in the wake of the Mongols). The interesting part of this is what to do with Egypt and Palestine after the Mamaluks and Byzantines finally repel the Mongols attempts to conquer beyond the Danube and Euphrates. Would a united Byzantium with a power base in Antioch be able to take and hold Palestine (including Jerusalem) without annexing Egypt as well? Or will such expansion to the south require the Empire to learn how to rule over Muslim subjects in places like Cairo and Damascus?

ha, is it possible to control Palestine without also controlling Egypt?

Anyway, I think Georgia and Kiev in particular have a brighter future with this TL idea, although they would be part of the Empire.
 
I'm guessing that the Mamluks could rule Egypt without having to face the wrath of the Mongols. However, the real question is, which territories would the Mongols control if they are dealing with Greater Rhomania?
 
The Mongols would be based in their OTL Il-Khante of Persia (from where they will sack Baghdad and invade Syria) and in the Central Asian steppes beyond the Dnieper (aka: the Golden Horde). The Mamaluks would likely face the same types of Mongol incursions into Syria and Palestine that happened OTL as well.

Maybe the Mamaluks would be sufficiently weakened enough for a resurgent Byzantium to invade Egypt (Manuel I seemed confidant about conquering Egypt in 1169), but Kiev, Vladimir Suzdal and Novgorod may end up being the Empire's new focus here.


I"m outlining my TL and am trying to decide between Kiev and Egypt as the paths of expansion for the Empire.
 
The plan may be feasable at the time of the Macedonian dynasty(due to the personality and effectiveness of its emperors and the financial strength and prosperity of Byzantium,the time Kiev became Greek Orthodox)
but with the Mongols is something that would spoil the broth:the presence of Subodai;rather make him enter diplomatic relations with Byzantium and instead of Kiev the Mongols can face the northern Russian principalities of Moscow Novgorod Pscov etc and invade Poland,Hungary Moldova etc until the Danube(or further if you like,destroy those countries(as they did) and then retreat and turn south west against Middle East;Now that would be very interesting.It will open a can of worms...and make a reversal of history:Ottomans disappear,two friendly powers command the Middle East and the Byzantines move in the Indian Ocean earlier.North you have e backward Russia and Kiev etc plus Georgia united with Constantinople...
I think your concept has fascinating opportunities...

You can also have the Silesian Piasts benefit from the destruction caused by Mongols by having the Mongols devastate Masovia causing Poland to be Western Oriented.
 
You can also have the Silesian Piasts benefit from the destruction caused by Mongols by having the Mongols devastate Masovia causing Poland to be Western Oriented.

My planning includes invasion of Russia,but not Ucraine(Byzantine allies of the Mongols),invade Europe with the known results that will relieve the northern border of the empire,retrace their steps of advance to attack Middle east,destroy the Mameluke armies,turn Egypt into their vassal,support the Christians(mainly Copts there) and allow Byzantium exit into the Indian Ocean.In such case their centre of operations would move from Karakorum to Persia.(of course I don't know what Sassanid Saxon wishes to do)
 
The Mongols would be based in their OTL Il-Khante of Persia (from where they will sack Baghdad and invade Syria) and in the Central Asian steppes beyond the Dnieper (aka: the Golden Horde). The Mamaluks would likely face the same types of Mongol incursions into Syria and Palestine that happened OTL as well.

Maybe the Mamaluks would be sufficiently weakened enough for a resurgent Byzantium to invade Egypt (Manuel I seemed confidant about conquering Egypt in 1169), but Kiev, Vladimir Suzdal and Novgorod may end up being the Empire's new focus here.


I"m outlining my TL and am trying to decide between Kiev and Egypt as the paths of expansion for the Empire.

What about the idea of Egypt a Mongol vassal under heavy tribute and Byzantine access or base in Suez,exit to Indian Ocean and subsequent alliance and special relations with Ethiopia? Byzantium should never stay a land oriented power;the Ucraine project is excellent because it would be a perfect groung for the Byzantines to breed horses there,have borbers with a friendly power(Mongols) and 300 years of security on the North and an invaluable ally(Mongols) with an inexcaustible source of missile cavalry in their assistance(and their own enrichment) against western European operations in Italy or elsewhere,Byzantine promotion in Indian Ocean sea routes for trade and Byzantine- Mongol operations for common profit and obvious domination of the Middle East...
 
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